TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 12/07/11

This entry is part 23 of 26 in the series Spoilers 2011: Part 2

The U.S. remake of Being Human returns with a second season on January 16. SyFy has been putting out previews of it for about a month now. We will start reviewing it again when it comes back off its interseason hiatus.

This week, we have spoilers for Once Upon a Time,  Doctor Who and Supernatural:

Once Upon a Time (Sunday nights, 8pm, ABC)
By Heather S. Vina

The preview for next week’s Sheriff-centric episode, “The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter”, is up on YouTube. It looks pretty exciting, but I think it also seals the deal that the Sheriff is the one who dies. There’s no way Regina will let him stay alive if he’s remembering.

Zap2it has synopses up for episodes 7.08 and 7.09.

“Desperate Souls, S01, E08 (First Aired: January 8, 2012)

“Emma runs for public office leading Regina and Mr. Gold to indulge in dirty politics; Rumpelstiltskin searches for a power source to help his son avoid war.

“Guest Stars: Meghan Ory, Patti Allan, Beverly Elliott, Giancarlo Esposito, Dylan Schmid, Conner Dwelly, Kate Bateman, Mark Gash, Ty Olsson, Brad Dourif, Michael Phenicie, C. Ernst Harth, David Paul Grove, Gabe Khouth

“True North, S01, E09 (First Aired: January 15, 2012)

“Emma tries to save two children from the foster system by finding their birth father; the Evil Queen has Hansel and Gretel steal an artifact from a blind witch.

“Guest Stars: Eion Bailey, Quinn Lord, Karley Scott Collins, Nicholas Lea, Emma Caulfield, Gabe Khouth, David Bloom, Osmond Lloyd Bramble”

So – barring this just being a mistake in the press release – Rumpelstiltskin has a son. Hmmm, very interesting, and it gives some depth to his character, if true. Perhaps his machinations aren’t all just for his own good, but something for his son, as well? Though it is interesting that his son is trying to avoid a war, which makes it sound as if his son is in some position of power or something. Hmm….

Matt at TVLine has a paragraph up about the upcoming story with Hansel and Gretel, and the Blind Witch, who will be played by Buffy alum Emma Caulfield. Seems she and the Evil Queen might not be friendly villains.

Ausiello at TVLine revealed that they are casting around for “an actress in her 30s to early 40s to play a sweet, quirky, charming and clumsy fairy named Nova.” I honestly have no idea who that character could be!

They also revealed the fall finale date, and the return of the show in the new year. “Fall Finale: Dec. 11 | Return Date: Jan. 8 (unofficial)”

E! Online has an interview with Jane Espenson up on their site, with several interesting tidbits. The biggest is confirmation from her (though it was already revealed in the Entertainment Weekly article) that Regina remembers everything: “Regina knows. She has her memory as the Evil Queen.”

They also had a few questions/answers up in their spoiler chat from last week.

[email protected]: Anything on Once Upon a Time, please! When will we found out more about Mr. Gold?”
“We’ll learn more about Mr. Gold (the ah-mah-zing Robert Carlyle), and his fairy-tale counterpart Rumpelstiltskin, in episode eight, penned by Jane Espenson! ‘Some crucial facts about where Rumpel comes from,’ are revealed in the episode, Espenson tells us. As for whether or not he’s truly evil, that remains to be seen. ‘He’s a wild card,’ she says. ‘His ulterior motives are still always very complicated.'”

[email protected]: Once Upon a Time, please! I am obsessed with this show!”
“We are, too, so clearly, you have flawless taste in television. Congrats! Remember that deal Emma (Jennifer Morrison) made with Mr. Gold? ‘He’s going to hold onto that for a while,’ Espenson teases. ‘He’s going to make sure that’s paid off when he can get the maximum bang.'”

And also, some spoiler answers for this week. Nothing really spoilery in this one. Just more talk about the “death”, which we know is the Sheriff. And I guess, at one time, the Sheriff was supposed to be someone else, instead of the Huntsman (as shown in the preview), but they couldn’t get the rights. And alas, for fans of David and Mary, the pictures of David and Mary kissing turn out to be a one-sided kiss. I’m guessing David for Mary, but after what happened this past episode, I can’t imagine her being very receptive to any of his overtures.

TV Guide has an interview up with executive producers Adam Horowitz and Edward Kitsis about the influence of their former show, Lost, on Once Upon A Time, and the future for the characters of the show.

They also have a tidbit in their latest Mega Buzz, which seems to be about next week’s episode, “The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter”.

“When will the curse be broken on Once Upon a Time? – James”
“NATALIE: Well, first of all, it’s not going to be like – poof! – and all of the sudden everyone knows they are beloved fairy tale characters. In fact, they’re definitely not going to find out all at the same time. But one person will, and soon. But this knowledge might end up being more of a curse than a blessing. ‘Even if you do know who you are, that doesn’t mean everything immediately comes back to you and you get your happy ending,’ executive producer Adam Horowitz says. Adds executive producer Edward Kitsis: ‘In a lot of ways, it might just make it worse.'”

They also announced that Sage Brocklebank has been cast as “Gaston” for the Beauty and the Beast episode “Skin Deep”, to air on February 12. Gaston is the villain in that particular tale. Sage is currently recurring on Psych as Officer Buzz McNabb.

Unfortunately, the ratings fell again this week, to a 3.1/7 in the demos, and 9.611 million viewers. Considering it’s the month of December, and shows tend to go down this month, and FOX had a huge ratings hit with Sunday night football, it’s not horrible, but it is a 9% decrease from last week. Hopefully, it will stop falling and start rising again soon, but all of ABC was down that night and it was still their #1 show of the night, over both Desperate Housewives and Pan Am.

Doctor Who (Saturday nights, 9pm, BBC America)
By Heather S. Vina

Radio Times put up a synopsis for the Christmas episode!

“Christmas Eve, 1938, and Madge Arwell helps an injured spaceman-angel. He promises to repay her kindness. Three years later, Madge escapes war-torn London with her children for a house in Dorset. The Arwells are greeted by a caretaker whose Christmas gift leads them into a magical wintry world.”

And the DoctorWhoNews site has up the prequel for the episode, as well as a short introduction to it from Matt Smith.

Only a few more weeks away!

Supernatural (Friday nights, 9pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

So, the big news this week, of course, was a double-hander. As fans were left wondering whether Bobby Singer was really dead, following last Friday’s midseason finale, the news on Monday was all about Misha Collins returning to the show in at least three episodes, starting with 7.17. It was reported by both Collins and Jim Michaels on Twitter, also via an interview with Collins and two articles. Anybody think the timing was a coincidence? [crickets chirp] Yeah, I didn’t think so.

Okay, so, obviously, nobody is going to elaborate on Bobby’s current status on the show (including Jim Beaver), any more than they were going to leak anything definite about whether or not Castiel would come back before now. It’s still not entirely clear whom Collins will be playing, though he teased it might be Castiel. I’ve seen suggestions that he might come back as Castiel, Jimmy, a Leviathan, or even one of Sam’s hallucinations. I’m basically expecting him to play a Leviathan at least some of the time and would be disappointed if Castiel did not return. Castiel promised Dean he would find a way to redeem himself for screwing up and that chekhovian gun needs to be fired, show. Jimmy has been gone so long that I think he’d need some buildup for his return to make sense. And there’s no room in the Leviathan storyline, as is, for that buildup.

As for bringing him back as a Sam hallucination, please, for the love of God, no. For a start, these hallucinations are just plot masturbation. The character is not real, not really there, and, therefore, nothing is going on that will change that relationship down the road. And for another, the emotional conflict is between Castiel and Dean. It’s always been between Castiel and Dean. Yes, Castiel knocked down Sam’s wall, but Castiel did that to hobble Dean. It had nothing to do with Castiel and Sam. Saying that was a conflict between Sam and Castiel would be like saying that Jessica, not Sam, had the main conflict with YED because he burned her on the ceiling (or ordered her burned on the ceiling). And we all know that’s not true.

7.13 is currently filming and there are two batches of set photos out. Producer Jim Michaels insisted the Impala would be back, but wouldn’t say when. According to these photos, it won’t be before 7.13.

Moving on to the promo at the end of last week. This appeared to cover two episodes, since 7.12 is supposed to be the time-travel one with Eliot Ness and 7.11 is “Adventures in Babysitting”.  What little we can see that seems to be from 7.11 makes it look like a standard MOTW. In one bit, for example, Sam is knocked unconscious by two women in an alley (and possibly bitten), while in another, Dean is seen inside a warehouse, making a running jump. Dialogue consists of Sam in a car (that doesn’t appear to be the Impala), asking Dean, “What’s the plan here, exactly?” and Dean replying, “Not dying” before they get out (heh). At the end, Dean also says, “Well, right about now, your stomach should be pretty knotted up.” The whole thing is scored to “Courage Riot” by the group Konquistador.

More descriptive are the clips that are pretty obviously from the Ness episode. I have heard people speculate that this episode is set in the 1920s and 30s. Now, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that it’s set in 1943, but I’m not going to bother going back to look it up because I can tell you for a fact from the promo alone that said episode will be set in the 1940s.

How do I know? Because there is a brief bit where Dean is standing in front of a large poster, shooting a machine gun. Dean is dressed in a long coat, tie and hat that could be 30s or 40s. I’m not an expert on firearms (different story with bladed weapons), so I can’t guess a date from his weapon, which seems a bit larger than a Tommygun but otherwise generic to the period. However, the poster behind him is far more specific about both time and place. It shows a picture of Uncle Sam with planes flying overhead and the words “War Bonds” on the bottom. Those aren’t WWI planes by any stretch and the U.S. didn’t sell war bonds between wars.

They did start working up a plan for the ones sold in World War II in 1940, but they did not start calling them “War Bonds” until after today’s date 70 years ago. Why? Because December 7, 1941 is the “date that will live in infamy,” the Japanese dawn attack on Pearl Harbor that unceremoniously yanked a previously reluctant and isolationist United States into World War II. So, Dean has to be back in time to 1942-5. Here endeth the history lesson.

Also of note in the clips that appear to be from that episode, we see Dean firing alongside another man, who appears to be a policeman, and also being tackled by someone. Someone (possibly Dean) is also seen kicking in a door to a house. In addition, there’s a very brief bit of a man who looks like Dean (but I don’t think is) kneeling on the ground and grabbing a man dressed like a hobo who is lying down. Both men’s faces glow red. I’m guessing this might actually be Chronos using his time powers on someone to kill that person. If it’s Dean, well…that’s really odd.

Previously, I’d been none-too-thrilled by the spoilers for this episode. Frankly, they sounded idiotic. Time travel back to WWII and meeting Eliot Ness sounded like a comic book from the 50s. Adding yet another obscure Roman god into the mix (so obscure that the writers could make up just about whatever they wanted for his personality and powers) didn’t help this impression. However, I have to say that I really liked what little we saw of it in this. I don’t know who’s directing that one, but that machine-gun scene, at least, looks beautifully shot. So, now, I’m looking forward to it.

There was a brief, and very late, preview of 7.10 with Sera Gamble last Friday. Jim Beaver also did an audio interview about the episode.

In other news, Supernatural is being parodied by MAD on the Cartoon Network. A preview clip came out last week. On the plus side, you know a show has arrived when it gets parodied and I often love parodies of my favourite shows. On the minus side, this one didn’t make me laugh even once. Comedy about spoiled teenage girls and vomit doesn’t do it for me.

Much funnier was a video appeal that Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles made to fans to keep voting for the show in the People’s Choice Awards (voting ended at midnight last night). Make sure you watch until the end. No, really.

Finally, ratings for “Death’s Door” were again at 0.7 for the demo, though the audience was back up to 1.890 million, which is okay for a December episode after a week’s hiatus. Also, more DVR+7 info is out, this time for the week of November 18. In its usual way, the show rose from a 0.7 to a 1.1 in the demo. This was for “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”. We’ll see in a week or two what “Death’s Door” got, but I’m guessing it will get another 1.1, or maybe a 1.2.

Don’t forget that Supernatural comes back with 7.11, “Adventures in Babysitting”, on January 6, 2012.

We’ll be back next week with more spoilers. Stay tuned and check out our reviews of Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, The Event, Once Upon a Time, and Supernatural.


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IFPTV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 12/07/11

16 Comments on “TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 12/07/11”

  1. Ginger

    I was surprised to see a speculation column today. Don’t know why I didn’t expect one.

    One thing I am interested in is getting the damned Impala back. I don’t even know what the stupid purpose of parking it for more than one episode was — more audience manipulation is all I come up with.

    I could care less about whether Misha comes back or not. I’ve actually enjoyed him not being around. Just between you and me, he’s okay, but I don’t find his acting all impressive. I liked Cas in S4, and I liked the Dean/Cas interactions, but that went nowhere really. I’m not surprised he’s coming back, as there was too much made of the “I’ll find a way to redeem myself” to Dean. Whoever he is, LeviCas or whatever, he’ll do something all very heroic and Dean will kiss his ass for it, be that this season or next season.

    Bottom line, Cas coming back and Bobby coming back is blatant audience manipulation in lieu of a compelling story. I do hope Dean goes berserk and I don’t care about Sam’s hellpain at all.

    I am a bit disappointed that they would follow up Bobby’s 2-parter with a standalone; possibly even two standalones from the looks of it. I’m left to think the Levi story isn’t all that intriguing or is developed so minimally that it can be told in the last two or three episodes of the season. Meanwhile, the rest of it is soap angst, SG’s specialty.

  2. Paula R. Stiles

    Eh, well, that’s why mileage varies. While I’m not obsessive about Castiel, I did miss Misha Collins’ presence on the show. I was disappointed that the show couldn’t manage more of a shocking exit for a character (Bobby) who had been around since season one, but I think that largely had to do with the fact that Bobby has never been central to the show’s plot. Even at the end, his main function was to act as an infodump character.

    I think that’s one reason why leaving his fate unclear to the end generated a “meh” from me. He’d already passed along his big revelation about the Leviathans to the brothers. His survival, or lack thereof, only serves as a motivation for the brothers to go out and kill the bad guy. Essentially, he ended up fridged.

    Castiel, on the other hand, has always been tied to major changes in the plot. And as his exit was a major change in the plot, so, too, should be his return (If they turn it into something lame like Castiel showing up in Sam’s hellucinations to bug him, I will be *so* annoyed).

    Just a thought–the Dean we see machine-gunning in the promo is not necessarily the real Dean. There is no reason to believe that no Leviathans go back in time before, along with, or after Dean. Or, for that matter, it could be a shapeshifter. Not that I would mind it being Dean, but it must be said. Things aren’t always what they seem on this show.

  3. Sunny

    I had to rapid stroll the Once Upon A Time spoilers lol…one of the only shows I like not being spoiled on. But I love your SNP spoilers and speculations, Paula. It’s nice to be able to read them and comment without someone jumping down my throat for my opinion.

    Naturally as a big Castiel/Misha fan I’m happy to know he is returning but I also hope his character isn’t crapped all over. I hadn’t even thought of him being a Sam hallucination but lord…that would be so lame. I completely agree with’s always been Cas and Dean and when he returns if he’s not whacked off his head or a Leviathan, whatever happens should be between him and Dean.

    I’m looking forward to the time travel episode but only because of Jensen in a fedora. I hope they don’t make Chronos like every other God on the show because that has really been done to death but I don’t have high hopes.

    As for Bobby I’ve had the idea that he won’t be dead but…well I don’t wanna spoil anyone but this is a spoiler thread so lol…that he’ll have amnesia maybe. I could see them going that route.

  4. Crowley_Gal

    I was really glad to hear that Misha was coming back but I really hope he’s not some stupid hallucination of Sam. That storyline was old back in episode 2. Sam is a liability in that condition.

    What Dean needs is a sign of hope in his life and if the writers are going to drop the other shoe with Sam it can’t come from there. To get his best friend back would do that for him.

    As for Bobby, considering this is the third time they’ve used this cliff hanger, I figure they are going to milk it for a few more episodes.

    My guess is that Bobby refuses to go with the reaper and he’s in a coma on life support. They can use that for manufactured tension between the guys because Sam will want to pull the plug and Dean probably won’t.

    That way they don’t have to deal with Dean going completely off the deep end because Bobby will still be “alive.”

    It also gives the writers a get out of jail free card. In which they don’t actually have to kill Bobby but he can “miraculously” wake up at any point.

  5. Lily

    I saw the promo for the People’s Choice Awards too. Not bad! As for Cass, I’m looking forward to his return, but I hope it is Cass and not a leviathan or a hallucination or whatever else that makes little sense. Cass’s connection is with Dean and that relationship needs to be honored, not twisted to suit a storyline that has no bases in the shows well established history. Gamble and company have been very cagy about Cass’s return so I’m sure their motivated in stirring interest with the fans.
    I know Cass supposedly blew up, but does that really mean the leviathans were able to kill an angel? Even if they destroyed Jimmy’s body, wouldn’t the angel, Cass, survive? This has bothered me since his supposed demise in “Hello cruel World.” Now we have two standalone episodes coming up, but how will that jive with “Death’s Door”? I would think there would be some mention of what happened to Bobby or is there going to be a time lapse of sorts?

  6. Ginger

    Don’t get me wrong, Paula. I can take or leave Cas at this point. In thinking about it, I see that Cas has always changed the plot. I liked S4 Cas a lot. I only found him as comic relief in S5 where he was learning to be an awkward, ignorant human when none of the other angels were like that. On the other hand, I loved Uriel.

    I really disliked a support character having the S6 story; especially since Dean was literally parked without a story until, IMO, they did a course change and started playing him up as being Cas’s BFF. More often than not, I thought Dean was dumbed down and Sam was pushed in the background of any scene Cas was in. S6 is when I started resenting Cas. But, as you say, it was a plot change…just one I didn’t like. But, then, I didn’t like a thing about the direction SG took for S6. I thought the whole season was one big mess.

    I don’t see how Cas, LeviCas, or Unknown Character Cas can be a Sam dreamscape. That just wouldn’t make any sense, since it has to be a Dean/Cas thing. There has never been anything connecting Sam and Cas, except Dean. I can deal with Cas as long as he doesn’t get the whole damned story again.

    Didn’t I hear one spoiler a while back that one of the boys (that would be Dean in a fedora — hot damn) would time travel and get stuck and the other (Sam, whose hair issues keeps him in this world) would have to get him back? I know, you can’t believe anything you hear from this show’s PTB, but I’m thinking this is the real Dean.

    Waiting for the winter hiatus or the summer to be over used to drive me nuts. It was like waiting for Christmas when I was a kid. Not so these days. The show is fun, and I’ll be there till the end, but episodes named “Adventures in Babysitting” just doesn’t trigger that kind of excitement or anxiety these days.

  7. Paula R. Stiles

    Glad you’re enjoying the peace and quiet!

    They seem determined to work up to an explosion for Dean and then go on from there. Episode 10 might be a bit too early for a full-on Crazy Dean, but it’s hard to say how they will draw that out. Concerns about Dean going haywire didn’t exactly stop them from killing off Ellen and Jo halfway through season five.

    Angel blades and archangels can kill an angel. Also, Eve was a Purgatory creature who could take away Castiel’s angel powers, presumably making him as easy to kill as a human.

    That said, we never did see what, exactly, happened to Castiel. The Leviathans were liquid and it’s not as though Castiel hasn’t been blown up before (twice) and still “got better”. He could easily still be around.

    At this point, I still really want to see two things–Dean going postal and our finding out what the Leviathans know about Dean that Castiel knew that they are so cagey about making sure Dean not find out. It implies that Dean has power over them he doesn’t know about yet, because you don’t fear what has no power over you–like, you know, human fondue.

    I know that Dick’s expression could be interpreted different ways, but his actions were *not* those of someone with the upper hand over his opponent. The taunts, the lurking in the limo, the shocked reaction to Dean’s “afraid or stupid” threat, even rolling up the window after Dean left…Dick was afraid. Whether it was fear directly of Dean or just fear of discovery almost doesn’t matter because Dean saw that weakness and went after it like a shark for blood. Dick showed a weakness to Dean and they both knew it.

    For the time-travel spoilers, I don’t recall the brother going back being trapped and having to be saved by the other brother, only that just one would go back. So, when we got the promo, there was a big “awwww” from the Sam fans. For obvious reasons.

  8. Arafel

    As always, thanks to both of you for this spoiler round-up.

    LOVE! that Dean is going to the past! And loved that promo for showing it to us.

    On to the Cas spoiler:

    “As for bringing him back as a Sam hallucination, please, for the love of God, no. For a start, these hallucinations are just plot masturbation. The character is not real, not really there, and, therefore, nothing is going on that will change that relationship down the road. And for another, the emotional conflict is between Castiel and Dean. It’s always been between Castiel and Dean. Yes, Castiel knocked down Sam’s wall, but Castiel did that to hobble Dean. It had nothing to do with Castiel and Sam. Saying that was a conflict between Sam and Castiel would be like saying that Jessica, not Sam, had the main conflict with YED because he burned her on the ceiling (or ordered her burned on the ceiling). And we all know that’s not true”

    I’m very happy that Misha Collins is coming back, but yes, I am somewhat concerned that these writers will screw it up by continuing in their attempts to diminish the awesome profound bond that has existed between Dean and Cas from, literally, the angel’s introductory scene. They’ve been doing it for some time now, IMO, possibly because of the threat they feel it poses to the brother bond and the Dean/Sam dynamic-which is ludcrous, IMO; and the worst part is, that it’s often been attempted via their trying to force there to be a similar type of bond and chemistry between Cas and Sam. I’m with you in thinking that the emotional resonance in that storyline should remain predominantly between Dean and Cas with Sam’s importance to Cas predominantly being because he’s important to Dean. With Ackles and Collins in these roles, that story has almost been telling itself, IMO. Go with the gold, writers. Don’t be fools.

    To finish off, the brightest spot of this season for me has been the return of EdgyDean-a character who for me, has never been able to stop fighting the good fight, even when the bone-weariness and hellishness of it all makes us fear for his sanity and who walks that fine light between light and dark and good and evil like no other. I have no idea where they plan on taking Dean, but I LOVE seeing that “edge” of his back and yes, he scares and daunts the baddies with it, which is what I love the most about it. 😉

  9. Lugilla Brown

    I guess I’m in the minority here. I’m thrilled and yes overjoyed Catiel has not been back and if I ever see him again it will be too soon.

    I’m a Bobby fan(I named my dog after him) but he needs to be dead. Death has no meaning anymore and on a show that bends the rules until it looks like a pretzel, makes it emotionally empty.

    This subject is a really sore spot for me. My BBF and roomate died after a 9 month, hard fought battle with cancer. I was annoyed at all the lets kill offf everyone, oops, let’s just keep bringing everyone back, now hurts. I don’t get a do over, it hurts and sets off a smouldering rage.

    Honor Bobby’s character and let him stay dead. The Reapers comment (paraphrasing here) about Bobby taking a ordinary little life and making something extraordinary out of it and he’s earned a rest was meaningful to me. Please writers grow a brain and let the boys honor Bobby like they did John, using what they taught them to incorporate into the family business to save people and hunt things. It puts Bobby on par with John, Father/Father figure, and becomes a much more lasting legacy to the 2 men.

    Please,please don’t cheapen it more that you already had with the
    unnecessary coda.

  10. Ginger

    ” I still really want to see two things–Dean going postal and our finding out what the Leviathans know about Dean that Castiel knew that they are so cagey about making sure Dean not find out.”

    This right here would make the season for me.

  11. Ginger

    @ Lugilla: Jim Beaver tweeted (on 12/06/11, I think):

    Just because someone doesn’t like the idea of someone dying doesn’t mean someone DID. Settle down! 😉

  12. Lily


    I, too, would love to learn what the leviathans fear about Dean. I don’t think Roman was just annoyed with Dean. I think Dean is a genuine threat, and it is possible Cass would know what the leviathans fear. Cass could have kept some things from Dean, which may harken back to season 4 and 5’s story lines. So I do think Cass would be important to Dean’s myth arc. Let’s hope TPTB don’t bungle his return.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Ginger and Lily
      I suppose I ought to care about what the main game plan is for the Leviathans, but I actually care more about why they’re afraid of Dean. The grand plans of the Big Bads are never really that exciting, anyway, and at least the connection to Dean will mean something important that we’ll find out about one of the leads that will affect his arc in the future (assuming it’s not completely forgotten next season).

  13. Lily

    Now that’s better. The homepage was screwy, but it’s better now. Great!
    I was reading your recap on Swan Song, I’m catching up on previous seasons you had written about, I can’t agree more. But you had brought up the keys to the cage, which had me wondering if they would play a part with the leviathans. What do you think?

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