TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/18/12

This entry is part 16 of 26 in the series Spoilers 2012: Part 1

This week, we have spoilers for Once Upon a Time and Supernatural:

Once Upon a Time (Sunday nights, 8pm, ABC)
By Heather S. Vina

The press release for episode 21, “An Apple Red as Blood”, is out:


“‘An Apple Red as Blood’ – Henry pleads with Emma to stay in Storybrooke and continue her quest as the savior of the fairytale dwellers, and Regina concocts a plan that could rid her of Emma forever. Meanwhile, back in the fairytale land that was, Snow White enlists the aid of her fellow fairytale cohorts to attack the Evil Queen and save Prince Charming’s life, on Once Upon a Time, SUNDAY, MAY 6 (8:00-9:01 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

Once Upon a Time stars Ginnifer Goodwin as Snow White/Mary Margaret, Jennifer Morrison as Emma Swan, Robert Carlyle as Rumpelstiltskin/Mr. Gold, Lana Parrilla as Evil Queen/Regina, Josh Dallas as Prince Charming/David, Eion Bailey as August, Jared Gilmore as Henry Mills, and Raphael Sbarge as Jiminy Cricket/Archie Hopper.

“Guest starring are Lee Arenberg as Leroy/Grumpy, Keegan Connor Tracy as Mother Superior/Blue Fairy, Meghan Ory as Ruby/Red Riding Hood, Beverley Elliott as Granny, Alan Dale as Decker/King George, David-Paul Grove as Doc, Gabe Khouth as Mr. Clark/Sneezy, Faustino Di Bauda as Walter/Sleepy, Jeffrey Kaiser as Dopey, Michael Coleman as Happy, Mig Macario as Bashful, and Sebastian Stan as Jefferson.

“‘An Apple Red as Blood’ was written by Jane Espenson & David H. Goodman and directed by Milan Cheylov.”

Getting close to the end, here! Let’s hope this means we might get some movement on Good winning out over Evil!

Matt Roush over at TV Guide had Once up as one of his Q&As on the frustration of watching the show and seeing Evil always win. He didn’t really have an answer, other than to say he is enjoying a show that is doing something different, succeeding for a change. I understand he doesn’t have an answer, since he isn’t a writer of the show, but it’s kind of strange to pick that question if you don’t have any spoilers and nothing to say to address the letter’s complaint.

There are several new promos up for the show. This one is based on the coming new episode, “The Return”. Another one from Spoiler TV is a little hard for me to see. And this one seems to be based on a multitude of episodes, old as well as new. There’s an interesting scene in there of Regina being tied up and the townspeople, being led by Emma, confronting her with swords and torches. Emma tells her that she took away their happy endings, so they are going to take away hers. Then Emma takes a sword handed to her by David. I tend to think that it’s some nightmare of Regina’s, but it’s nice to speculate that maybe the good guys will discover their roots, remember their pasts, and get the one up on the Evil Queen, for a change! LOL!

Other than that, not a lot of spoilers out there for the show right now. But remember that the show returns April 22 – this weekend – with the episode that may (or may not) reveal who August is!

Supernatural (Friday nights, 9pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

Unsurprisingly, we have a new burst of spoilers this week. Many thanks to those of you who posted some of them in the comments for last week’s column. The show officially ceases filming season seven today (The wrap party was over the weekend) and the first of an unbroken run of the final five episodes for the season, “Of Grave Importance”, airs this Friday. So, we now have spoilers going up through 7.23, even if the latter are vague. Keep in mind that a great deal can happen in five episodes, especially ones at the end of a season, so too many assumptions this early are still questionable. So far, we know that the brothers, Dick Roman, Castiel, Ghost!Bobby, Meg, and this new prophet, Kevin, will be in the season finale. There are rumours that AdamMichael may return in 7.23, as well.

In addition to the CW promo, the Canadian promo is up, as are a clip of the brothers discussing the case (while Ghost!Bobby tries to get their attention by ruffling a curtain next to Sam) and some rather uninformative official photos (We already knew Ghost!Bobby was in the episode). Dean looks exhausted in the photos. The promos are somewhat more informative, giving us a brief glimpse of the female Hunter, acting as if she’s not dead, and Dean calling out to Bobby after Bobby writes his name on a steamy shower door.

I know this Ghost!Bobby thing is supposed to be heartwarming, but it is creeping me right out. How is this doing Dean’s sanity (or Sam’s opinion of Dean’s sanity) any good? Even if Sam is given incontrovertible proof that Ghost!Bobby is hanging around that flask, the show has set it up so that Sam will be adamant about burning the thing and Dean will be equally adamant about not burning it. And since we have set photos showing Jensen Ackles in character with the flask prop and Jim Beaver playing Ghost!Bobby, obsessing over Dick, this issue will continue right to the season finale.

Also up is the latest episode synopsis, this time of 7.21 (“Reading Is Fundamental”):

“CASTIEL AWAKENS FROM HIS COMATOSE STATE – Meg (guest star Rachel Miner) calls Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) and tells them Castiel (guest star Misha Collins) is awake and talking. Meanwhile, a teenager named Kevin (guest star Osric Chau) gets hit by a bolt of lightening and is turned into a reluctant prophet. Sam and Dean believe Kevin holds the key to defeating the Leviathans but must fight off two Archangels who want him for their own purposes. The episode was written and directed by Ben Edlund (#721).”

There is lots of speculation over the archangels part, whether it means Michael and Lucifer are coming back, or that Gabriel and Raphael are being resurrected, or perhaps that two new archangels will be introduced. Just a note – Castiel is catatonic not in a coma, and it’s “lightning” not “lightening”, so it really isn’t beyond the realm of probability that the person who wrote this synopsis also did not know the difference between angels and archangels in the SPNverse. Take with a chunk of rock salt.

Osric Chau isn’t exactly a teenager, but he’s got a decent resume of experience under his belt, so I’m guessing he’ll do just fine with whatever they give him. Let’s just hope the writing doesn’t suck as badly as it sounds, already.

There are a couple of official photos of Felicia Day from 7.20, encountering the brothers in an apartment and trying to fend them off with a sword. Lordie, there’s lots of sword porn this season. Not that I’m objecting. In addition, set pics from 7.23 have been rolling in here and here. Jim Beaver essentially confirmed that Bobby is still a ghost in the season finale (though, hey, who knows? He could be foilering. Again). TV Line posted a “preview” of the season finale, which appears to be gleaned from known spoilers, larded with some speculation (Yes, that’s what I think the bit about the two “fan favorites” ending up somewhere unexpected is so far – speculation). In addition, Jake Abel caused a stir when he tweeted that he was going up to Vancouver. He is busy doing the Percy Jackson film, but previous sightings this season of guest stars have resulted in guest appearances, so it bears mention.

There’s a new, non-spoilery interview with Traci Dinwiddie out, as well as a new, two-part interview with Matt Cohen. No hints that either is coming back, though it would be nice to see Pamela again – I mean, if we’re going to insist on bringing back tons of dead people, at least be creative about it, show.

New entries are up for Supernatural tie-ins on Amazon. First is another novel (after John Passarella’s sophomore effort, Rite of Passage, due out on August 14), Fresh Meat by Alice Henderson. It comes out on November 13. Both novels have Bobby as a co-protagonist. Also listed is the official companion for season seven, due out September 25, and the season seven DVD (No release date yet, but it should come out around the same time as the companion). Due out on October 16 is the high-priced hardcover, The Essential Supernatural: On the Road with Sam and Dean, by Nicholas Knight and Eric Kripke. And the show’s wall calendar is listed to come out early this year, on July 24. So far, only one is listed, as opposed to the usual three.

Finally, ratings for “Slash Fiction” were up from last week’s repeat, with a 0.4/1 and 1.030 million. Also, the Live+7 ratings rose from 0.7 to 1.1 for “Party On, Garth”.

We’ll be back next week with more spoilers. Stay tuned and check out our reviews of Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, The Event, Once Upon a Time, Grimm, and Supernatural.


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IFPTV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/18/12

68 Comments on “TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/18/12”

  1. Ginger

    Dean has looked wiped all season. I hope it’s the makeup and not JA struggling with whatever background noise has been going on back stage this season.

    As for the spoilers, there are so many loose ends floating out there, and I still have no idea if the point of the season was to resolve the brother’s personal issues or to, in fact, deal with the Levi, so I’m not giving any of them an credence. There’s been so many lies this season, it’s fruitless to even try to guess what is going to happen, or even any of the intriguing possibilities that could happen. I’m just going to watch each individual episode and finish wading through the season. In the end, I hope I’ll be satisfied.

    One thing we do know is that Bobby is still a ghost in the finale. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was left up in the air. Didn’t I read on this board that Jim Beaver was tweeting he would be in S8? Can’t remember.

    The Bobby thing is creeping my cheese, too; mostly because I feel like the whole thing is going to end up having a Swan Song effect on me. I just see no good ending here. Permanent GhostBobby goes against all canon and everything the hunters stand for or heartwarming (*cough*) resurrection makes Dean story pointless this season.

    I suppose I can live with angels and archangels tromping around again, but I sure hope they aren’t the insta-fixes that make humans look like pets and pathetically weak. I much more favor stories about humanity that give hope that people can do something on their own without supernatural intervention.

    I looked up Osric Chau and do agree that he may be alright — if they don’t write him like a stereotypical TV teen. His resume looks like he can act above the level the girl that played Krissy did.

    Here’s hoping EK didn’t write the finale, and I’ve heard no rumors of that whatsoever. I have no idea why they are keeping who the writer was a secret at this stage of the season.

  2. Ginger

    Oh, I wanted to add. The preview for this week is just incredible. Bobby has moved swords and pieces of paper, but now he can only flutter a curtain and practice moving a lantern. The consistency of the writing this season is driving me nuts!

    And, you know, I’d rather see the Colt 1911 and the Desert Eagle, rather than these big swords. Or how about giving Dean that sniper rifle back. That was pretty cool.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      I’m more into bladed weapons than guns (Why, yes, I did watch Highlander religiously. How did you know?), so I’m quite enjoying all the sword porn. Guns are okay, but there are already a lot of guns on TV and in films. Not so many swords and very few good ones.

  3. Ginger

    I loved Highlander. I’ve got the whole series on DVD and my summer plan is to re-watch the entire series over the summer when I’m without SPN. As far as bladed weapons, I do like it when Dean brutely stabs with the demon knife…in fact, I like Dean doing the hand-to-hand close work. (I don’t like Jared’s broad sweeping arm action with the knife, because it looks like he purposefully misses most of the time.) But my favorite flavor is Dean with the 1911. I like guns.

  4. elena

    As glad as I am to finally see some spoilers, it’s still frustrating that we’re still so much in the dark about, well, everything. The foundation for the finale has traditionally been laid way back in the beginning of the season. Although it’s still possible that the writers can pull off a cohesive Leviathan story in these last episodes of the season, I’m disappointed about how little mytharc building has taken place otherwise. To me, the only really progressive storyline has been wasted on Bobby. If Dean’s depression actually goes somewhere and doesn’t end up just being filler emo, that’d be great. Then I could overlook the corporate Leviathans and smarmy Dick to focus on Dean’s storyline. But with Bobby now back in the picture and few definitive spoilers, it’s just really hard to speculate in what direction all of this is going.

    As for Bobby….I just resent his character through and through at this point. Dean is stupid and whiny, Bobby? Methinks you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. I just don’t see a purpose for that character anymore and I don’t know why he’s around when so many other characters really are gone from the show( except that the writers adore him which means the old Bobster ain’t going anywhere.) Not to mention how ghost Bobby just feels like an unnecessary distraction at a time when the focus should be on Dean’s arc and the Leviathans.

    Swords or guns? Good question, ladies! How about “both?” Badass Dean with a sword is way hawt, but I have to also agree that Dean shooting the Colt and using that sniper rifle made me all tingly too. I totally blame Jensen for my indecision.

  5. Crowley Gal

    Thanks for the round up. We had more this week than I realized.

    I’m not taking the fact that Bobby is still a ghost in 23 by what Jim says. We know the producers and Jim Beaver are not above lying.

    I’d be interested in Ghost Bobby if the show was going to stick to canon and have him go vengeful spirit. Dean having to lose Bobby all over again could be the thing that causes him to snap. At this point I think i need to see some kind of breakdown from Dean or I’m going to think the storyline is pointless.

    From speculation on the finale it sounds as if Bobby is Bobster the Friendly Ghost. Now, I know its just spec, but I don’t know if the writers will actually have the nerve to pull the trigger on the storyline and have Bobby go rogue. I hope I’m wrong though.

  6. AFriendofAFriend

    I just need to say something that hasn’t really a lot to do with the SPN spoilers and theories and all, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate and love the way people interact with each other on this site. the way they discuss, agree or disagree. it’s all done in a very sweet manner and it’s never rude. On a lot of other sites people get personal really fast and talk and act inappropriate, because you have a different opinion than they have. But not here: so thank you to all of you! I really enjoy all the talking on here!!! <3 <3

    Now to the spoilers. On one hand I like that there is still a lot "in the air" and we still tap in the darkness, it means we can still get surprised (in a good way or bad way – let's hope for the good way) because nothing is more boring than knowing for sure what will happen. but on the other hand I'd really like to know at least some loose ends to get resolved.

    I personally hope that Dean will finally have a complete storyline and arc that won't just get dropped in the last few episodes.

    Also @ Crowley Gal. I agree with you. Breakdown for Dean is kind of overdue and I think in a way I'd like to see that even though I hate seeing him hurt, but yeah… what I wanted to say is that I remember that Jensen said in an interview a few weeks back that there has to be breaking point with Dean at some point. So maybe something like this is in the cards.

    Anyway, just felt like saying it again: I really like the discussion on here.

    1. Ginger

      I’m glad you joined us. This is a good group of posters and they are much more insightful than me. I just know what I like and what I don’t like. I’m probably the most cynical one of the bunch, but that can all be blamed on Swan song. Paula keeps us all cleaned up, though, and we do all love the show. Welcome.

  7. Cassieo

    Oh..I don’t know. Bobby going rouge could be rather intersting especially if it’s written by Carver.

    From the BTS photo that were released, Bobby is still in his ghost cloths so, I’m guessing if he is restored, it won’t be till sometime next season. And I’m guessing Cas will be in dire straits…adain… by the end of 7.23. Also final resolution to him will be next season too. Maybe both are affected somehow by how they have to kill the levies to save the world. Have to think if they are still around, they will be involved some how. No reason they were both brought back to just stand around and watch Dean kill the levies himself, or Sam either. And they must need a freindly ghost for the deal, otherwise bobby could just have been in a coma till needed for the final sweep.

    They are going to do something dangerous, and as Collins said Cas would undergo another transformation at the end of the season,I’m guessing he ingests the levies like he did before and jumps down into purgatory with them this time. Since he can’t send them, he does Sam’s swan song into the pit this time. Care to guess what next season will be like then?

  8. castiel'scat

    If ghost Bobby can barely flutter a curtain maybe he didn’t move the sword ( would love it if Dean did it)…
    If they are indeed archangels, how will the boys fight them. I thought the Takeaway from 5 was that they could not fight Lucifer, therefore the best plan was for Sam to say yes and Dean make sure he goes onto the cage.
    I also really hope deans story goes somewhere. In agreement that I am not loving ghost Bobby.
    Yeah Highlander. Loved it and hated the spinoff. Why couldn’t they have gone with mithos instead of the slutty lady thief.

  9. Sherry

    Episode synopsis for 7.22 (“There Will Be Blood”) is up.

    SAM AND DEAN SEEK OUT AN ALPHA — In order to defeat Dick Roman (guest star James Patrick Stuart) and the Leviathans, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) must locate three key items. Castiel (Misha Collins) helps with one but for the last objects, the Winchesters must face two of their strongest opponents – an Alpha (guest star Rick Worthy) and Crowley (guest star Mark Sheppard). Meanwhile, Bobby (guest star Jim Beaver) tries out a new ghost trick that ends up being very dangerous.

    Guy Bee directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb & Daniel Loflin.

  10. castiel'scat

    I agree this is the best place for good discussion and no drama. Dean brings out the best in people.

    Cas reswallowing the Leviathan and jumping into purgatory … very interesting thought. I thought his transformation might refer to regaining his memories or awakening from catatonia. It is a rehash of Sam and sg loves to rehash. I would think an angel could leave purgatory since he could get on and our of the cage
    … but maybe not. S8 -road trip to purgatory! Umm … how would he do this- can he flash them and swallow their essence? Definitely interesting.

    Sherry’s post regarding there will be blood also interesting. I am guessing they need the blood of an angel, an alpha and a demon to….. open purgatory? Kill kill kill leviathan? I guess this will clarify if Crowley is a demon (we have never seen demon eyes) what no Phoenix blood?

    I would be happy if torching Bobby set Dean off on a vengeance path. I just want there to be more for him than depression and substance abuse. I am starting to see this season as sg hammering her warped views of special suffering Sam and weak sidekick Dean. I hate feeling this way. I usually am a so dean-positive.
    Normally I would find it exciting for all of the loose ends. But it worries me because I am so afraid of disappointment. They have dropped so many interesting details for Dean practically every season. Like their is no interest in continuity or ploy development for him. Sigh. He gave up his entire life- literally and figuratively Sam. Sam continues to do him wrong.

    By the way I have handled a lot of bladed weapons , pointed weapons,firearms and crossbows. They don’t do much for me unless they have interesting technological detail or are wielded by a worthy specimen…. lets call him dean. But I can attest to the powerful effect they have on some folks. Most men can’t keep their hands to themselves when ancient/historic weaponry is involved- is a nono in a museum context.

  11. Heather S. Vina

    Thanks for the spoiler round up, Paula!

    I’m really wondering what kind of influence Carver is going to have on the end of this season, because I just can’t imagine him not. I mean, he is the one in charge of the show next season, so I can’t imagine he wouldn’t want to influence the season ender and have some input on the cliffhanger that is going to lead in to his season. I wonder if that’s why they announced his take over early?

    I can’t help but be really disappointed by the latest synopsis. There’s no hint of Michael, there’s no hint of any angel storyline for Dean. Way too much of Bobby. He’s had way more of a storyline this season than Dean has had, and it really infuriates me and makes me dislike both Bobby, and resent Jim Beaver’s presence on the show. Just another Sue character that takes away from Dean getting a storyline. Amazing how they jumped from Sam to Bobby for that, completely skipping any real story for Dean.

    It sounds like Dean’s “arc” this season is just another dropped plot point, since there hasn’t been any mention of it for awhile. There was in relation to a plot for Bobby, but since that seems to be “resolved” in the show’s mind with Bobby being a ghost, I kind of doubt they are going to do anything more with it.

    It’s sounding like the whole season finale will be more of a Team Free Will ender, which shoots down my hope that Dean would be a lead player in taking down the Leviathans. I guess it’s only Sam who gets the “he saved the day by himself” story.

    Ugh, this synopsis just made me kind of bitter. I was hoping for something for Dean, but at this point, all of my hopeful ideas seem to be just wishful thinking, with the show planning on nothing special for Dean, as usual.

    I am kind of excited about Rick Worthy’s return, as he was great as the Alpha Vampire, but I hope they don’t completely ignore the fact that Dean was a vampire, again. And I really hope they don’t have Alpha Vamp fawn all over Sam again, saying how awesome Soulless Sam was and how great a monster he was/would have been.

    I really do hope that Carver rights a lot of the wrongs done to the character of Dean on this show, because I am getting beyond tired of being set up for a story for Dean, only to have it yanked out from underneath me with a Nelson-like “ha ha.” Enough is enough.

  12. Lani

    @Heather S. Vina

    Well said! You voiced perfectly my feelings about Dean’s arc this season. Honestly, I’ve enjoyed the speculation here on this site far more than anything the writers have been serving in the episodes and its been so disappointing to see them toss aside so much potential.

    Right now, I keep reminding myself that the synopsis for the episodes this season have been almost as bad if not worse than the episode titles and leave out or twist something in a way that doesn’t play across on screen. They haven’t been talking about Dean much in the synopsis during the second half of the season and there’s actually been a lot going on with him we have no clue about until the episode airs. Yes, even if it went the lamest route ever with ghost!Bobby it was still mentioned in the synopsis. That I can recall anyway. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

    The show’s back for the final five episodes and even if I’m not excited by the released spoilers and synopsis, I’m keeping my fingers crossed we’ll be surprised in a good way. Here’s hoping!


    Thanks for the spoiler round up! I loved the speculation about Michael going on in last week’s thread. So many possibilities! And with Carver coming in maybe, just maybe, one or two will be cashed in and set up S8 in a good way. 🙂

  13. Paula R. Stiles

    The Producer’s Preview for 7.19 is up:

    Looks like the female Hunter is a doornail and that the brothers cannot see Bobby, even in the house.

    I’ve had training with bladed weapons in Aikido and some fencing. A gun is, obviously, more effective in actually killing people, but we overuse guns in fiction and they’ve turned into a TV cliche.

    I know what you mean about Padalecki’s stagefighting. It’s as if he’s a little too obvious about missing. I suppose part of it is that he doesn’t get as many knife and sword stunts as Ackles.

    I wish we’d get another knife fight like “Skin” because that was a lot of fun–fast, complex, vicious, and kinetic. Unfortunately, Kripke has said he went more a “blue collar” route, so we ended up with redneck bar fighting, instead. Really makes me wonder, sometimes, if the writers truly have a clue what “blue collar” means.

    I can’t say that I love the way Ghost!Bobby is going, either. Not only has the focus of the one storyline that clearly was about Dean been yanked right off Dean, but it’s been replaced with something where Bobby torments Dean and we’re supposed to sympathise with *Bobby’s* frustration. Seriously, show? How sick is that?

    We could still end up getting a great storyline for Dean, but it should have been set up by now. In fact, a lot of mytharc stuff has been neglected while the writers uselessly screwed around with meta and rehashed MOTW plots for six or eight episodes.

    @Crowley Gal
    If you read the set report, they talk about a woman in ragged clothes who ends up in a conversation and then an alley fight with Bobby in the scene they were filming. The evidence really leans toward Bobby being Ghost!Bobby in that scene.

    Bobby needs to go rogue. Last season, I would have been horrified if they even suggested it, but they’ve jerked around with Bobby so much at this point that I just want them to remember their own show mythology. Besides, they already screwed up Castiel and made *him* go bad.

    Yeah, they’ve been hinting all season (for years, really) that Dean is cracking up. They need to deliver.

    If Castiel goes to Purgatory, it’s possible Dean may go with him. Hence the two fan favorites ending up in a weird place thing.

    God, that spinoff…you really know how to bring back bad genre memories for me, don’t you?

    Don’t get me started on Ghost!Bobby’s variable abilities.

    As for archangels, I always thought they could just shoot ’em with the Colt, grill ’em up, and either find an archangel’s sword, or send ’em way back down south.

    The archangels’…eternality, shall we way, always struck me as grossly overrated.

    As for bladed weapons, I’ve been a tiny bit obsessed since I got my first Swiss Army knife age eight.

    Yeah, I saw that. It could be good or terribly bad. Not feelin’ Crowley so much these days, but I’m glad they got the Alpha back. Just wish that script didn’t look so crowded. Bee’s a good director, but Dabb and Loflin have been extremely variable under Gamble.

    It’s far too soon to tell what’s going on with Dean. It could be they’ll follow pattern and all the important stuff is hidden. And it could be we’re going to see both brothers shoved to the sidelines by the end of the season.

    No way are they going to mention Michael if he’s coming back.

    Carver’s usually good and his stuff on “Being Human” has been reasonably well-plotted. So, hopefully, he’s writing the season finale and we’ll get some good stuff. It’s just too early to tell.

  14. Ginger

    @ Paula: The sword fights in Highlander were a thing of beauty. I read an interview with the actor back in the day that said he had really got into some heavy sword training. Sorry, it seems like a hundred years ago and I can’t remember the specific details. And, yes, I love to watch fencing. I wished the Olympics showed more of those matches. The thing with Dean and guns, though, is we get to see Mean Dean “looks” when he’s with the Colt — hints that he could be a badass hunter. And since the show has concentrated on Dean being the emo’g hunter who incessantly struggles with his feelings, I appreciate these little hints of the dangerous side of Dean.

    Singers producer promo makes this episode sound very Bobby-centric. If that turns out to be what it is, I am going to be very unhappy after all the starts and stops recently. Besides, we’ve already had totally Bobby-centric episode this season. That will piss me off. It will also be a heavy indication that Dean’s story has been yanked AND that both brothers are going to be pushed to the background…just like last year.

    I have no doubt no one left on the show has a clue about blue collar guys. I grew up in that world, and believe me, Sam and Dean these days are looking more like California yuppie in blue jeans and plaid imitations than anything close to blue collar on the fringe of society. When was the last time they’ve even been in a seedy bar with rock blues or country music playing? Look at all the nice suits they wear these days. Look at the music the show is playing. The nicer motel rooms for the most part. The cultural references they’re making (half of which I don’t even understand).

    Anyway, yea on Rick Worthy’s return. And what was the name of the Highlander spin-off? I can’t even remember it.

    I’m still obsessing about this ghost stuff and canon. Bobby saying he passed out after moving the journal got me to thinking about the ghost in After School Special. That one was attached to the hair in the bus, but that one also possessed people and could hop out of the bus, kill, and return ‘home.’ So now we know ghosts have to be attached to objects, but they can possess people like demons, that they can hold captive other ghosts, ghosts who can have amnesia from incident to incident, and ghosts who pass out for exertion but rejuvenate themselves. Have I forgotten others? Oh, and apparently, some ghosts drop the temperature, but some don’t now, because it looks like Sam and Dean’s breaths aren’t showing there in the haunted house with numerous ghosts and one very powerful. God, I have a headache.

    Singer did mention that Sam and Dean weren’t sure whether to be happy about GhostBobby or not (something to that affect), so perhaps they are setting up for a S8 rogue Bobby story. It’d will be nice if they remember they have a story yet to tell about this season.

    I’m more aggravated than I am excited about these last five episodes, given the spoilers we’ve had. I’ll hang in there, but it’s not looking good.

  15. elena

    From the sound of Jim Beaver’s recent tweet,

    “That’s it. I’ve just wrapped Season 7. Very weird saying goodbye, not knowing if this is hiatus or forever”

    it seems as if Bobby will be coming back, assuming the show’s renewed.

    Paula, you hit on the two things that are bothering me the most about the rest of the season:

    “Not only has the focus of the one storyline that clearly was about Dean been yanked right off Dean” and

    “We could still end up getting a great storyline for Dean, but it should have been set up by now”

    Exactly! We watched Dean unravel until he reached his limit with Bobby’s death and went on a revenge mission against Dick. Suddenly, it seems to be “Swan Song, the Sequel”, with yet another secondary character popping out of the woodwork to snatch Dean’s storyline from him. AGAIN. So, now what? Dean’s downward spiral has been yet another whopping Chekhov’s gun? It’s beyond ridiculous at this point.

    I guess even if Dean doesn’t end up having a meaningful season long arc, he still could end up playing a pivotal role in the finale. If the ritual or whatever needs something from an angel (Heaven), alpha (Purgatory), and demon (Hell), it might also require a human (Earth) who’s been touched by all four realms to complete it. Dean fits the bill nicely so that would be pretty cool.

    1. Ginger

      “That’s it. I’ve just wrapped Season 7. Very weird saying goodbye, not knowing if this is hiatus or forever”

      I’m calling bullshit on this. I don’t believe the show would make a cliffhanger about a support character (I believe two, in this case…both Bobby and Cas)and not know if the actor was going to be available for the next season.

      I also believe that this pretty much confirms that Dean’s story, except for helping the gang kill off Dick, is dropped again. It doesn’t matter if Bobby is a ghost or a real person to live another day. With his story not resolved, it means that Dean’s story was totally pointless the whole season. Dean mourns Bobby, but Bobby didn’t really need to be mourned IS NOT A STORY. Hell, Crowley and Meg were in the show for one episode and they are part of the gang, which equates to Dean did have the one episode to go get Cas so Cas could save Sam.

      I don’t usually use the F word, but I’m doing a lot of “f’ing” right now.

      1. Paula R. Stiles

        Adrian Paul, bless him, cannot act his way out of a paper bag and has an ego the size of the Grand Canyon, but one thing he can do (which Highlander showcased wonderfully) is martial arts. I’ve heard he’s an expert in several and is an excellent swordsman. They also had a great stunt coordinator and a few of the actors, like Peter Wingfield, were no slouches in the stagefighting department, either. I completely believed that Duncan MacLeod was a great swordsman. In fact, the only time I didn’t buy that he could take an opponent when he did was when he took on the Horsemen. For a start, that storyline belonged to Methos and Cassandra, *not* to Mac and Methos, and Paul should have taken a step back and let that happen. For another, I never bought that he could take on even one of these four guys who had survived three-thousand-plus years of exceedingly violent lives, let alone whack two of them in a matter of days and be considered better than the one survivor. That was just…silly.

        The sequel was called “Highlander: The Raven” and it was baaaaad. Gracen was decent, but the writing was terrible, and she and her costar apparently didn’t get along.

        Blue collar folk come in a wide range. I worked the trades through college and grad school, and one of my grandfathers was a carpenter. What amazed me about my coworkers was their complexity and smarts underneath the denim. Too often, Kripke & Co. have treated blue collar people with mockery and then turned around and acted as if education were stupid. Way to annoy everyone at once.

        As for Ghost!Bobby, we can’t say for sure what’s going on with him (and no, I don’t trust Beaver’s tweets these days at all), but it is annoying enough that we know he’ll be around at least for the season finale, and with a fairly prominent role.

        What’s mainly annoying is that the writers seem to have decided that they need to make the season finales about anyone but Sam and Dean–well, aside from Sam getting his own personal arc. That is aggravating. But we still have five episodes to go, so let’s wait and see. If Dean *is* the centre of the season finale, they definitely won’t tell us beforehand. I’m not sure it’s the smartest thing to do, not telling us, but it’s been the way they’ve rolled the past two seasons.

        Dean gunporn is very nice, but we often get that (though the sniper rifle never gets enough screentime). I just wish we could see more bladed weapons, too. Not every MOTW is affected by guns.

        1. Ginger

          ” What amazed me about my coworkers was their complexity and smarts underneath the denim.”

          This right here, and I would add an inordinate amount of common sense.

          No, Adrian Paul can’t act, but he is cute, had a great body, and the role was perfect for him. I don’t think he had much of a career after Highlander ended, did he? At least I don’t know of anything else he was in.

          I was into Methos, too. That was a great character and, I thought, a pretty good actor. Of course, the Watcher — the bar owner (see how long ago this has been — I can’t even remember their names) was very good.

          If you really think about it, SG doesn’t only make her finales about support characters, she develops the the support characters much more than she has done the brothers. She just gives them a weak, half-assed story and writes around them. I would bet the ranch that any Michael/Dean stuff is not in the works. If we’re lucky, with the gangs’ aid, Dean will actually get to make the Dick kill.

          I’ll finish the season and give Carver time to clean up the mess EK and SG have left, but I better see some indication that Sam PLUS Dean are the lead characters of this show. My patience is being sorely tested.

  16. Arafel

    As always, thanks for the spoilery, Paula and Heather.

    I’m especially glad that the show is coming back this week and with an uninterrupted run of episodes right up until the end because the spoilers and hiatus info all season long have done little more than further feed my frustrations with Show since they decided to kill off(or actually NOT! kill off) Bobby. Ugh.

    I’m afraid I’m getting the same feeling as some others here are-that Dean’s storyline is yet again being transferred to another character, only instead of Sam or Adam, it’s Bobby, this time, and that Booby will wind up being the BDH of the finale and the one who gets to take out Dick Roman. Hope we’re wrong about that. I also hope that they ARE hiding something about that dropped Dean/Michael connection/storyline from S4, Paula…*fingers still crossed for this; or really just something(ANYTHING!!) that will bring some genuine and noticeable resolution to Dean’s supposed 7-season-long “soul-searching” storyline, so that he can hopefully have a better role next season-and one that’s more in keeping with the theme of the show’s title and it’s genre*…

    Oh, and I am an equal opportunity gal where it involves weapons porn and Dean. I found SniperDean to be one of the HOTTEST! things that this show has ever given us and my favorite weapon to see Dean carry is the sawed-off. However, Dean wielding knives and swords this season has been nine-kinds-of-AWESOME! and I DO hope that we’ll get a lot more of that coming into the homestretch of this season-especially if he might be wielding that sword that the girl is holding in that one spoiler pic.

  17. AFriendofAFriend

    Honestly, the more episode descriptions and spoilers, etc. we get, the less I know. I’m so confused. I have no idea what is going to happen anymore. I love all the theories (Michael!Dean, etc.) that have been floating around here the past few weeks and I’m just really hoping that something at least kind of equally as exciting is going to play out on screen (yeah, maybe I’m a bit naive to still hope for something cool to happen that no one of us has ever thought of before) especially if it involves Dean. 🙂 Sorry, but he’s just my favourite. Which doesn’t mean I don’t like Sam or the other characters like Castiel. I love Sam, Castiel, etc. as well, just not the same way I love Dean. 😛

    But in general, at the moment, I’m just totally confused, because every new description feels like everything that happens in the episodes (I know the descriptions can be very misleading) has nothing to do with the next. First the archangels, then the 3 key items. I have to admit I like this idea though. I assume it’s about the blood of a purgatory “native”, someone from Heaven (Castiel maybe?) and someone from Hell (Crowley). Okay, I’m just thinking/writing aloud now, it all might not make a lot of sense, so just take it as crazy idea-blabbing. 🙂

    To get the blood they are seeking out Crowley and the Alpha. So far so good. But then I was thinking if it was just about the blood they could just ask Meg, couldn’t they? I mean right now she is kind of their “ally”. And they would have the blood from someone from Hell. But maybe you need someone high-ranking and therefore they seek out Crowley. Or the people who helped open the door to Purgatory have to be involved somehow. Then they would just need the blood from someone from Purgatory – the Alpha (even though, maybe Dean’s blood would do as well? I mean he was a vampire once, for a short period of time, the phoenix ash, etc…but…).

    Anyway, doesn’t really matter, because then another thought occured to me. What if it’s really not about the blood, but the 3 key items are the souls of someone from Heaven, someone from Hell and someone from Purgatory? I mean it all started with the souls, why wouldn’t 3 souls of each “region” be needed to end it? If that was the case I could very well imagine, Castiel volunteering to give his soul as the ultimate redemption for all his mistakes in season 6. I doubt though that Crowley would just handover his soul (if he was needed as one of the people who helped open the door to Purgatory). Same goes for the Alpha.

    I know this is probably nothing that would ever happen, but hey I’m just trying to make sense out of this mes of descriptions and awesome theories and spoilers and the fact we still don’t have a definite pick up.

    But on with my thoughts. So, if they have to split up and get those 3 item, whatever they are, I guess Castiel would most likely go to Heaven to get it (or to Hell to face Crowley?), Sam would go to Hell (I guess he’s still working through a lot of his issues from his time “down under”, another trip to the pit wouldn’t help that one bit I guess) and Dean would go to Purgatory (he was a vampire and he’s got the ash of the phoenix in his blood).

    Or it’s all mixed up and Castiel ends up being in hell in 7×23. Or Dean and Castiel end up in purgatory together? Maybe this is what the spoilers are about when saying 2 fan favourites end up in a very unfamilar place in 7×23.

    Ugh I don’t know. My head hurts. Too much thinking. I’ll stop now.
    Hope you don’t mind my crazy. 🙂

  18. Cassieo

    Well now you have me confused. I agree that it was possible that maybe the trailer could be edited in such a way as to imply the boys saw Bobby, but really saw something else instead, which was hard to believe since BOTH boys were shocked and looking at the same spot when Dean said Bobby’s name.

    But in the producer’s promo, Singer definitely said Bobby was a ghost and that while Bobby desperately tries to help them, they are not sure having a ghost partner is the best thing for them. How could they decide that, if they didn’t know and accept Bobby’s ghost existed? I’d sure like them to see him, but seeing him is immaterial if they accept that he’s around. Maybe that’s why Annie was given a 10 yr possession. It’s because of that that she sees and hears him.

    It’s also a reaction I had not expected from the boys. I expected Dean to be thrilled Bobby was back and Sam while less emotional would be glad to at least speak to him again. Why deny he exists?

    And he is seen and talks to Annie, and you know she will tell the boys Bobby is around. In fact we see her talking to Dean in one of the promos, so you know he at least knows. I see no reason in them not seeing him too. Really why would TPTB do that? Unless the point is to keep Sam doubting his brother so at the end, he can jump up as the only sane person and save the world. Haven’t they made Sam look stupid enough? How many times are they going to have Sam betray his brother? He’s supposed to be a top notch hunter and they can’t even let him get an EMF reader or a talking board to work right? That would be a VERY crummy thing to do.

    As for Bobby, I have to wonder what is going on. If they wanted him off the show, they would have killed him and let it go. They didn’t. And while I’d like to think they are correcting a SG error, I doubt that too. I think it was planned all along this way for a specific reason. Just from a podcast JB gave right after DD.

    So if they still wanted Bobby’s character in the show for the finale, they didn’t need DD, or if the grief was needed, they could have left him be comatose with little hope of recovery. That would serve the same purpose. But they didn’t.

    Instead they made him a ghost. Why? Part of the solution to the levies must require something only a ghost can get or do and in that case you would need a friendly ghost partner. From 7.22 we know Cass gets the boys one of the three things they need. They have to get the other two….one from an alpha vamp and one from Crowley. I’m thinking Dean’s ‘attachment’ he had while a vamp will be needed to get the item from Worthy. So maybe a Ghost!Bobby is needed to convince Crowley to play nice with the boys? Then once they have what they need Dean kills Roman and they both get the rest of the levies?

    I don’t know. Just wish we knew who wrote the finale. I’m thinking its Gamble, and they want to keep that info under wraps as long as possible. Trying to hype the suspense up before people find out and decide they want to avoid the finale all together.

    “I guess even if Dean doesn’t end up having a meaningful season long arc, he still could end up playing a pivotal role in the finale. If the ritual or whatever needs something from an angel (Heaven), alpha (Purgatory), and demon (Hell), it might also require a human (Earth) who’s been touched by all four realms to complete it. Dean fits the bill nicely so that would be pretty cool. “

    I like it! Sounds like it came from the “Angels and Demon” movie. And even if there are ghost, angels, demons and prophets involved, if Dean is the leader giving the orders that will work for me.

  19. Paula R. Stiles

    Re: the common sense – well, that depends. I’ve known some real morons working the trades, too. Even morons need to work and they don’t always have the money to go to college or even grad school and exercise their moron-ness that way.

    Paul’s career definitely peaked with Highlander. Since then, he’s done a series of direct-to-video and Syfy Channel movies and a couple of terrible Highlander flicks. Elizabeth Gracen retired and, as I recall, started a business. Peter Wingfield (Methos) went on to do Queen of Swords and some other series. Sadly, he decided to retire last year to go back to medical school at (coincidentally, since I’ve gone there, too) the University of Vermont. Jim Byrnes (who played Joe the Watcher) still acts and plays the blues. He was last seen doing a recurring role on Sanctuary (Wingfield was also on the show).

    Actually, Gamble has never written a season finale. Ever. We don’t really know what she’d write in a season finale (though we can garner something from the penultimate episodes she’s done), and if Carver does end up writing this season finale, we may never know.

    My favourite WTF?! moment in The Raven was the episode about the guy who got killed because he was going to blow a big eugenics program where they were distributing estrogen-laden flour to women in Africa, as birth control. Aside from the scientific daftness of it (It’s unhealthy to feed people estrogen and not a terribly effective way of preventing them from having children), the women I knew in Africa would have been lining up around the block if you told them they could buy flour that would help them reduce the number of kids they were having. *They* weren’t the ones who wanted to have ten kids!

    I agree that the main problem is not just that Dean is conspicuously absent from these spoilers (As I pointed out, if they have something huge and game-changing about Dean coming up, they will never tell us ahead of time). So is Sam. It doesn’t mean much, except that we’re not getting any official end-of-season spoilers on either of them.

    The main problem is that the synopses for the last five episodes are all over the map and that usually indicates a complete collapse of the mytharc. Plus, the whole thing with Ghost!Bobby is annoying and a symptom of the show’s recent tendency to drag storylines on into Interesting Fridge Mold territory before summarily dropping them, as well as an obsession with giving everyone but Sam and Dean the world-changing stuff in the season finale. I used to like Bobby…until the show tried to shove him down my throat.

    Now, about the theory floating around about the three items, etc. from the four realms–would I love if this involved Dean in some way? Hells, yes. Would it be perfect for Dean? Yes. Not only has he been to three of the realms and been a vampire, but he also has Phoenix blood in his system. Do I expect them to go there? Well…that’s pretty complex for them. Carver might go there. Edlund might even go there. Gamble? Not so much.

    I do think the show ought to throw Dean somewhere, with someone who is not Sam. The latter would change things up. The former led to a great cliffhanger at the end of season three that pulled in a lot of viewers for the season four premiere. It would be a smart move, but again…that was accidental and the writers have not proven to be smart about gauging audience reaction that way. Pandering is not quite the same as having one’s finger on the pulse of the audience.

    Why are you so hung up on this when the episode will answer your question tomorrow and you know for a fact that the promos have been misleading, with the writers even flat-out lying about key plot points, all season? We’ll know one way or the other tomorrow. But for now, *no*, it’s *not* a given.

    Case in point–remember the big hoopla about Dean being “cursed” in “Out with the Old”? Remember how that turned out to be nothing? Like that. The promo teases with the idea that the brothers will see Ghost!Bobby in 7.19, but it is not actually confirmed. They are not in the same shot in the promo. There are several clips in the promos confirming that the brothers can’t see Bobby, even in the house, initially. We don’t know how long that lasts, or if it even might last to the end of the season.

    Also, it’s not a given that every shot that’s in the promo is in the final cut. Remember the “I always knew you’d come back” line from the 7.17 promo? Didn’t appear in the final version of the episode. It’s not a given that either their reactions or “You can see me?” will be in the final cut.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Thanks. More Ghost!Bobby shenanigans. Oy.

      Yes, show, let’s by all means take an entire episode out of the last quarter of the season to give Bobby a complete makeover and upgrade. I find it remarkable that the same people who go on endlessly about how Dean needs to remain human are all perky about Ghost!Bobby. Remember when Bobby was completely human and an example of how a human could have all of this knowledge that could beat supernatural creatures? Who cares about that when we can watch him do awesome superpowers! It just shows up the hypocrisy of the Dean Must Remain Human position.

      Plus, the show is really screwing with the best MOTW type it’s ever had. Ghosts have always been creepy and effective on this show, chaotic and otherworldly. But noooo, let’s turn that into something utterly mudane and have Bobby beat all that, even though he was a total whiner in his lifetime when it came to alcoholism, losing his wife, and paralysis. It was one thing when he was still human (or when they only had his big problem being losing his wife. I can understand why he never got over that), but this is ridiculous.

      Ah, well. At least the interview hints that Bobby may hit a big wall o’ hubris in the near future. One sincerely hopes.

      1. Cassieo

        I agree. Bobby needs to be back human. But I have to admit it could be interesting how Carver depicts Bobby’s anger streak. Kind of sounds like Sally in BH. And if they wait till s8 to do this, Carver would be in charge of writing it.

        1. Paula R. Stiles

          Bobby just needs to bugger off to Heaven or Hell, already. Not reset as a human, not left as a ghost. A major part of this show has been that people die, some of whom you love, and it sucks. If Bobby is brought back months after his death, it opens up a huge can of worms. Why not every other dead character? Why not the Doomed Teaser Crowd? Why not villains?

          I really wish this show could get back to storylines that don’t need a stake put into them two episodes after they appear.

  20. Sunny

    After seeing the latest Promo for Once Upon A Time I’m actually excited for the finale. But if it’s a dream or whatever I’m punching someone lol.

    So many people are excited about Bobby being back and I…well I just don’t understand. I mean I get it if you like Bobby you’re happy to see him again but by all respects he actually GOT a good send off. (Unlike Castiel) Lots liked Death’s Door and thought it was a good end for him, so why would you be okay with them bending canon just to have him show up again? Him being back–while it may help the boys with big picture stuff–doesn’t get over the fact that he’ll have to leave again. Even if he gets a tearful goodbye with both Sam and Dean I won’t care because killing him was stupid in the first place and now it’s just angst/contrived emotion for emotion sake. And it kinda annoys me how they’re trying to force emotion out of people, mainly angst. I am SO tired of their kinda angst I could scream.

    I’m excited for Alpha Vamp though because I liked him the first time around, and honestly figured we’ve never see him again. Also ya know as much as I love Dean and want him to have his own awesome story line, I’m lucky because I love Castiel just as much so if someone had to be the hero other than Dean, I wouldn’t mind if it were Cas. Anyone than Sam this time though kinda works too.

  21. castiel'scat

    …friend … has interesting ideas. Blood vs souls… I say blood. After all the title is there will be blood. Are cas and Crowley just any angel and demon or must the blood be from cas and Crowley. I don’t know. The door was opened before by humans And by cas alone. We know the spell included the blood of someone from purgatory. Any Levi would work for that. It is possible the other blood was added off screen. Or the blood of the three is for another purpose. … maybe to harm the Levis. Cannot say for sure at this point. (Like yhe four corners catch cassieo… not really a fan of dan brown) Weird to include the alpha who whilst alive lives on earth was created by Eve on earth. Why would alpha blood be significant and Phoenix blood/ ash that killed Eve would not. Also they may need Crowley for another purpose. He is the purgatory expert.

    I have had my fearful rant and will try to remain positive for an interesting conclusion. This ghost Bobby is impotent thus far. Hard to see him contributing much except to communicate information. They should find a medium and be done with it. Of course if he goes all rage he may be better able to affect change. I don’t see him playing much of a role in the finale. I think they killed him and ghosted him to create drama and push dean further down the rabbit hole, rather than to push forward plot development.

    Was that a challenge paula. What other horrible genre shows can I fling at you. ..
    Original dark shadows. I loved it as a kid (I even wrote a letter when it was cancelled threatening to stop watching their cartoons in protest) somehow I suspect it didn’t age well.
    Or… kindred. I loved all the crazy vampire clan drama but it was not spectacular viewing. Are you cringing yet.

  22. Ginger

    The whole Bobby thing just ticks me off. I agree, Bobby needs to go away.

    You’re right, Paula, EK wrote the finale last season didn’t he? Doesn’t matter, though. Dean could have not been in the whole season and it wouldn’t have made any difference one way or the other.

    I think the same thing is happening again. It’s to the point I’m wondering who JA pissed off.

  23. Paula R. Stiles

    I agree about the Alpha Vamp. He was a great villain and I’d love to see him back. But that synopsis sounds hugely overstuffed. It reminds me of “Two Minutes to Midnight”, which promised so much and then shoved two Horsemen, along with Crowley and Team Free Will, into one episode and ended up one big cluster****.

    I want to believe they will pull something good out of this season, but so far, the way they have played things out has been a combination of uninspired, dull and annoying. They wrote Levstiel out far too quickly, had some promising stuff with the early Leviathans (like Edgar and Dr. Sexy), and then settled on the most tedious and unoriginal permutation possible–Dick Roman, would-be Presidential Candidate. Oh, golly, political horror in an election year. How topical.

    Then there was Crazy Sam. That dragged on forever, was as poorly researched and inconsistently written as Sambot last year, and ended with a predictable whimper because (like last year’s Sam arc) no one plotted it out ahead of time for potential issues.

    Bobby was built up into an outright Gary Stu (Where were the fans who complained incessantly in seasons four through six about Castiel being in “every” episode when Bobby was in or was mentioned in every single friggin’ episode for the first half of season seven?). Then his death was dragged out longer than a diva’s aria. And then that death was constantly mentioned for the next six episodes with no actual plot movement in terms of grieving or revenge. Now he’s back as a “friendly” ghost. If I had to pick one thing that really irritates me about this season, it’s how the show has turned Bobby into a joke.

    Dean’s depression storyline had some promise. When it turned into a revenge-and-gaslighting storyline, it got quite intriguing, more so than anything else this season. And then…it turned into Bobby the Friendly Ghost and what the hell, show? I could live with this if the show had an appropriate, sinister tone of Bobby turning into a monster who is almost feeding off Dean. But instead, we’re supposed to be seeing this as heartwarming. This goes right back to my main complaint about the Gamble era–it stopped being a horror show and has turned into dark fantasy. It needs to go back to horror and that needs to start with Ghost!Bobby turning rabid. Either that, or he’s forced to move on before he starts foaming at the mouth.

    Not at all happy, though, about the idea some people have floated that Ghost!Bobby’s big sinister power may involve possessing Dean.

    Also, knock it off with the bald-faced lying, showrunners. Spoilers are meant to promote a show and build up anticipation. If you lie to the audience in your promotion, you kill that anticipation deader than a tinned mackerel. If you promise something, DELIVER.

    Hey, don’t you diss Dark Shadows. Silvia loves that show. She’s the one to taunt about vampire stuff. I’m neither here not there with them, though I’m not fond of the romantic, sexy vamps.

    Kripke has written all six previous finales. I’m hoping they don’t pull him in for a seventh. Yes, the first four were good (Well…season two’s was disorganised, but had some good stuff in it), but the last two have been dire and mediocre, respectively. I think having him write a season finale after being separate from the whole previous 22 episodes would be a disaster. Please, show, don’t do that.

    1. elena

      “Dean’s depression storyline had some promise. When it turned into a revenge-and-gaslighting storyline, it got quite intriguing, more so than anything else this season. And then…it turned into Bobby the Friendly Ghost and what the hell, show? I could live with this if the show had an appropriate, sinister tone of Bobby turning into a monster who is almost feeding off Dean. But instead, we’re supposed to be seeing this as heartwarming.”

      When Bobby showed up in the last episode, I felt as if the entire season had just literally imploded on itself. Bobby’s death had served to force the brothers into full adulthood and push Dean’s storyline into a bold direction. Now, suddenly, all that was completely undermined. Bobby’s death proved to be meaningless, the possibility of the brothers breaking free of their crutch to finally become independent hunters was moot, and Dean’s character arc was pretty much flushed down the proverbial toilet. As much as I disliked last season, at least it had a point hidden in the chaos.

      And in my eyes, it’s freaking ridiculous that the writers have shifted from seeing Bobby as a secondary character who served as an adjunct to the brothers’ story to now being essentially a lead character in his own right. Has this suddenly become the “Bobby Show?” With such an already Bobbycentric season, Bobby usurping Dean’s revenge arc, and ghost!Bobby’s storyline continuing to gain momentum, it sure feels that way. When I see some fans enthusiastically cheering Bobby’s return, my eyes roll so far back in my head, I can see my prefontal cortex. With only five episodes left in the season, sure, why not waste time on ghost Bobby learning how to move a book.

      Sorry about the rant, Paula. It’s just so discouraging to see the writers take an interest in every other character but Dean. The show’s just asking a lot from disappointed Dean fans, without bothering to give us much to hold onto in return.

  24. AFriendofAFriend

    Just a few more crazy ideas from my side since I still want to believe – I apparently am stubborn as hell – in a great storyline surrounding Dean or well… maybe just any amazing storyline at all. Not that I say my ideas would be good enough for something amazing. Not at all, but here are a few more things I’ve been thinking about.

    1st thing is. I’ve been hinking about Dean and the Leviathans and how maybe it all could in the end still be about Dean. Remember how in “Slash Fiction” the Levi!Sam and Levi!Dean sit in the diner and wonder “How these two guys are even a threat?” This is something one really wonders about since as far as we know there is nothing out there that makes the Leviathans die permanently, aside from chopping their heads of and keeping it somewhere else than the body. So, good question. This Chad Leviathan even said that they aren’t afraid of them, but still they seem to have at least some kind of respect for the two brothers. They might not be scared but there is def something special about them. To me to be honest I always had the feeling that it’s more about Dean. The Leviathans want to get rid off him, he’s the one they are after really (but maybe that’s just how I percieved it) I mean after all they say it kind of to Dean’s head in 7×02. “We’ll be back. For you.” I always thought it was directed at Dean in a bigger way than it was directed at Bobby and Sam.

    Okay, so maybe there is something about Dean that could really be a threat for them and maybe not all the Levis know – at least those in the diner seem to have no clue – but this Dick Roman Levi def seem to have an idea about it (I’m specualting). So maybe it’s really about Dean and his blood.? As was said before on here Dean has the connection to heaven, hell and purgatory. That has to be something special, right? Maybe this connection is what could end the Levis and that is why they want Dean out of the picture. As I said before. To me it doesn’t seem like they see Sam as a threat at all. Maybe that is because he doesn’t have all the connections mentioned above (phoenix blood, vampire, resurrected by heaven, been to hell). Maybe it’s Dean, because he is (I know this was just meant for the apocalypse but still it could fit) “the righteous man who started it, is the one who can end it”.

    Few more ideas, just short thoughts, nothing really thought through. I’m sure there are more holes in all my ideas than anywhere else. 🙂 But what can I say I just like to specualte.

    So 2nd: What if they need those 3 key items whatever they are (I’m guessing it’s blood, since the episode is titled “There will be blood”) blood, souls or something entirely different to open up the cage to let Michael out without letting Lucifer out at the same time. Kind of like with thr 4 rings of the horsemen to open the cage, you know. If that was the case I would just hope Adam!Michael will be released to heaven and we get to see Dean!Michael.

    3rd: If those 3 key items are souls (no way this is in the cards, but I’m just spinning my wheels here :), what if the one with the connection to all three regions (Dean) have to “swallow” all 3 souls to fight off the Levis?

    4th: Maybe one of the key items is baby?
    5th: What if the sensitive info Dick Roman wants from Franks hard drive in fact has something to do with Dean and his connection to all 3 parts?

    Okay, enough weird thinking from my side. Thoughts? 🙂

    1. castiel'scat

      Very interesting thoughts. I have wanted Phoenix ash blood to be important for ages. It definitely seems that Dean is the one they fear. Previously I thought maybe its the blood or maybe its that he is Michael’s vessel. I love that it could be all these things… Phoenix ash blood, vessel status, servant of heaven status, monster status (vampire and worm possession, hell (tortured soul, broken righteous man and master torturer), and touched by an angel and ressurected) As paula has said before, for just a human he is on a par with the supernatural. He also has a unique experience with the supernatural that no one shares. Dean is very special. I would love for this to be acknowledged and used by the writers. I would love for it to be Dean.

      Keys to open the cage… very interesting. DeanMichael would be very welcome.

      The Levis know everything cas knew. I can’t see Frank knowing something that cas didn’t unless he ran tests on Dean while he slept for 36 hours (drugged?)
      It seems more likely Frank knew something about the Levis.

  25. Crowley_Gal

    Yet another Bobby interview. More and more it sounds like the rest of the season is going to focus on Bobby.

    Dean’s drinking was dropped during Plucky, Repoman, Out with the old, and not really touched on in Born Again Identity. Then in Party On Garth its picked up again. It makes me question whether Dean’s drinking is a story about Dean or just a way for the writers to keep Bobby around.

    With how crowded the the of the season sounds, why do we need an episode that sounds like its all about SuperBobby and learing to use his ghost powers. I’d rather they use the episodes to build up the final rather than just shove everything in. Crowley and the alpha vamp should be getting their own episodes.

  26. castiel'scat

    Sorry Silvia. I loved dark shadows when it was first on. I do wonder how it holds up now. Anyhow it was my first horror experience and I was hooked by Barnabas ‘ hand creeping out of his coffin. I still love hortor and owe that to dark shadows. I kind of wish I has several hundred dollars of free money to spend on it.

    Sorry paula too. I bet I will accidentally remind you of another genre faux pas in the future. I will watch anything.

    Ew is posting a beaver interview later today. According to their spoiler room, It sounds like he will stay friendly.

  27. elena

    And…. another Jim Beaver interview:

    @AFriendofaFriend- you have some really interesting ideas, any of which would make a great Dean storyline. But with all the Bobby pimping and no Dean spoilers, I just feel like a deflated balloon right now. But maybe Bobby’s role in stopping Dick isn’t going to be nearly as important as Jim B’s making it out to be and Dean won’t be nearly as sidelined as I’m expecting. Hopefully next week’s episode will give us a better sense of the direction in which things are headed.

  28. Laurie

    I just saw ep 7-19 and had to comne here to record my undying hate for it. You were so right Paula, when you predicted that they would ruin the mystique of ghosts. It was awful. So bad I wanted to stop watching it, for the first time in 7 years.

    Can the brothers be written any stupider? They were useless idiots and even unlikeable. Was it just that I hated everything I saw, or did JP and JA actually act bad and awkwardly? I may be me.

    Furious. If they sideline them in the finale and make them passive in their own story, I swear…

    1. castiel'scat

      JA’s acting was fine. His bro not so much. It was painful to watch their scenes. I have been noticing something most of the season and had attributed it to Ja showing us his mental state. Now I am thinking there has been something really off in their scenes. ???

      Also not very happy after seeing this.

  29. Ginger

    @ Laurie: ” did JP and JA actually act bad and awkwardly?”

    I thought JP was totally distracted. Wasn’t this the episode that was filmed during the week of 3/12, when they thought the baby was going to be born and it didn’t show up until 3/19?

    Of course, both brothers had very little material to work with and, although I found there was no real charisma between JP and JA, I didn’t find JA too far off. In fact, I was actually moved at Dean’s devastation in the ending car scene. That was a good scene…the ‘natural order of things one.

    And, seriously, who couldn’t love Dean’s wet shower hair?

  30. Paula R. Stiles

    Hey, don’t feel embarrassed about throwing out “crazy” ideas here. Or being enthusiastic about the show.

    It is possible that the reference to the keys is a reference to Dean, as per the hard drive, but we’ll just have to see.

    I don’t really get why the writers have chosen, two seasons in a row, to suddenly shift gears in the last five episodes and make the season arc about a secondary character. Sure, some of the fans like Bobby, but his presence and absence have had little effect on the ratings. So, I’m not getting why they would focus on him. Jared Padalecki was the one who was about to have a kid, not Jensen Ackles. They could have made the rest of the season Deancentric.

    Unfortunately, it looks as though they can’t decide whether the flask represents Dean’s drinking or Dean’s drinking represents a segue into Ghost!Bobby’s Bogus Journey. So, they’re stuck in neutral with it.


    That could get ugly. I’ve watched some pretty bad genre shows. In fact, I recently stumbled across the opening titles for an old show called “Isis” and recalled that I used to be a huge fan of it back in the day.

    And yeah, if they make even Bobby some kind of super-supernatural creature, they have no excuse keeping Dean “just human”.

    The worst part about the episode wasn’t that the brothers were written as dumb. We weren’t given enough of their POV for them to come across as dumb. It was that we barely saw them.

    Now, I don’t necessarily mind this, if it’s written well and the brothers get a few awesome moments. I *loved* “Ghostfacers!”. But this was not written well.

    I thought that Ackles did his best (Padalecki was hardly in it and when he was, the writers handed him emotional whiplash. Suddenly, when he has proof Ghost!Bobby exists, he wants to keep him around? Say, what?), but he wasn’t given much to do. I got the impression at the end that Dean was tempted to burn that flask and be done with it. I did notice that finding out Ghost!Bobby was real had the opposite effect on him of hopeful. He was really upset about it.

  31. Sunny

    (“But instead, we’re supposed to be seeing this as heartwarming.”)

    Regarding 7.19…people are giving Dean grief for what he said to Bobby at the end of the episode. Seriously it’s like they’ve been drinking the kool-aid or something. They DO see it as heartwarming. I keeping seeing the argument that Bobby just wanted to help. Okay…sure I buy that but seriously what about the emotional ramifications that this will cause the guys, especially Dean. He’s already so messed up and having to put Bobby down won’t change that. And yet people are calling Dean a dick for telling the truth, when Bobby is the supposed “uber hunter” who should have known better. It makes me so angry when people discount Dean especially when his reasons for doing something are right. Oh well he didn’t coddle the guy who decided to become a ghost in the first place, let’s hang him!

    I think that’s probably one reason why the only Deancentric season we’ve gotten is four, and even in that he was so “weak”. Some people really dislike when he’s right and wanna dog him for it. Like the whole mess about putting Sam’s soul back into his body; how many people still say that was a bad move but in less mellow terms? How many people took Sam’s side in the Amy deal? Man, I just don’t get it. Sure sometimes Dean is a butt head with certain things but when the guy is right, give him his due.

    And all those people who were moaning about Castiel in earlier seasons (and as early as 7.17 because yadda yadda yadda something or other) are cheering/crying/so happy Bobby is back. I’d say I don’t understand why but I have an inkling.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      The stuff with Bobby versus Castiel just makes me shake my head. Sure, I’m fine with Castiel being back. He was ambiguously written out in the beginning of 7.02. He was mentioned a few times since, with a few stock flashbacks, and didn’t come back until 7.17, where he was not exactly welcomed with open arms (though Dean was weirdly beyond thrilled to see him, despite all his mixed feelings). Plus, he’s an angel and he’s been dead before. And he has a redemption arc ahead of him. Was I wowed by 7.17? No. But I had no problem with Castiel’s return.

      With Bobby…what *is* that? He’s built up as a Gary Stu for ten episodes (Not to mention, suddenly, he’s a Dead-Eye Dick with the rifle, in the dark, when he couldn’t shoot straight in past episodes like “Sin City”). Killed off in an interminably sappy episode. Is mentioned near-constantly for the next six episodes. Then comes back in the middle of a *Dean* story and takes it over. When did we get a break from this character? When did we get time to miss and mourn him?

      As for some fans hating Dean…they’re going to do that. You watch–when Dick goes down, if Dean kills him, we’ll hear about what a complete bastard Dean was about it.

      I don’t know what’s going on in the writers’ heads. Ackles and Beaver were certainly not playing it as heartwarming. In fact, on second watch, I saw a lot of looks between Dean and Bobby that were quite ominous. I think Dean’s gearing himself up for a good-old-fashioned salt’nburn on that flask and Bobby’ crotchetiness is ratcheting up, already, toward rabid. If it were just based on their acting, I’d say there’s a really ugly confrontation brewing in the near future for those two. The problem is that the writing is full of aw-shucks and the musical cues are schmaltzy. So, again, there seems to be a real disconnect between different parts of the show in who is telling the story and how it’s being told.

  32. Ginger

    @ Paula: I wasn’t going to discuss this until your review came up, but:

    “I got the impression at the end that Dean was tempted to burn that flask and be done with it. I did notice that finding out Ghost!Bobby was real had the opposite effect on him of hopeful. He was really upset about it.”

    In the final scene, when Dean is talking about the natural order of things, I was actually moved for the first time this season because Dean was so absolutely devastated…and I thought JA played that beautifully.

    I’m still really pissed. I don’t know what is going on with this show, but I do know that the one consistent story throughout this whole damned season has been Bobby’s; a damned support character. I want Dean to gank his ass more than I want him to gank Dick Roman! (But I do agree with you that the looks between Dean and Bobby were not warm and fuzzy and were not what the music was giving us. It’s just weird.)

    And what is with the preview not even having Sam and Dean in it?

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Well, they are in it–Dean does get two lines and Sam is sitting next to him–but the focus is quite strongly on what’s-her-name. I also didn’t really understand the point of putting in a joke about her being lesbian, seeing as how it had no relevance to what was mentioned in the promo. I mean, sure, have her randomly lesbian in the episode. That’s fine. But it didn’t make sense in the promo and seemed like some really random info for a character I’ve never met before (and who will likely be dead or never seen again by the following week)–especially since Dick is a Leviathan and wouldn’t be interested in sex with a human, anyway. And Dean would be aware of this.

      No, those looks were not at all warm or fuzzy. And it occurred to me that Bobby getting an upgrade might not be such a great thing in the near future.

      1. Ginger

        Well, the thing is that no matter which way they go; permanent GhostBobby or Dean burning the flask, it is not a good thing for Dean. What it might do in the end is not have the whole season be all about Bobby. But I just don’t see anything good coming for Dean — that is to say, I don’t see Dean getting anything out of this season except more grief. I do realize, though, that it is possible that it doesn’t go completely that way. Bobby could ask Dean to put him to rest and it could all be very touching, but I don’t see that as a win for Dean at all.

        Dean had two lines? Charlie the Computer Geek is a lesbian? I missed both those, but those promos go so fast. I always have to wait until they come up again to re-watch them.

        1. Paula R. Stiles

          One of the few “hopeful” things I saw in the episode in terms of future stuff is that the actors did not play it as though Ghost!Bobby was a good idea. The script couldn’t seem to decide if it was or not, and the music was totally off, but Annie seemed to think it was a lousy idea, Bobby was acting like a complete jerk, Dean was depressed, and Sam was confused. Nobody was jumping for joy over it, even though Bobby obviously had expected joy.

          Also, Dean seemed even more messed up than before. I mean, think about it–now that the reality of Ghost!Bobby is sinking in, Dean is in even more despair. He can’t even send his old father figure off into the Great Beyond. I can’t see this ending well for Dean at all. It’s just more mental torture.

          The promo is here:

          1. Ginger

            I’m with you on the ‘hopeful,’ thing. Annie’s dialogue could not have been clearer about moving on.

            Bobby was a complete jerk, and; yet, I think we were supposed to be rooting for him to succeed all all things. Loved how he did a Sam stomp off, Mr. I’m-Going-To-Kill-Myself-Because-I-Am-In-A-Wheelchair Whiner, and now his boys don’t jump for joy and attempt ghost hugs because he’s there to help them…it’s because they are mentally challenged compared to him obviously.

            And why is it Annie had not met her reaper yet? I didn’t get that.

            Thanks for the link.

          2. Paula R. Stiles

            I’m guessing Annie didn’t meet her Reaper because Whitman was doing something black-magic-y to keep in control. Or something. They really screwed with the ghost rules on this one.

            I’m hoping Bobby being a jerk was a sign of future rabidness because the idea that we were supposed to side with puir, put-upon Ghost!Bobby creeps me right out of the haunted house. That would be like Sambot and Grandpa Shady saying, after Dean got vamped, “Wow, Dean! You’re a great asset to the team as a vampire. Let’s go get you a nice, fresh coed to eat.”

          3. Ginger

            “Wow, Dean! You’re a great asset to the team as a vampire. Let’s go get you a nice, fresh coed to eat.”

            I’m laughing at you, Paula! How true. Kids are demanding attention now…something about wanting food. I’ll check in later to hear other thoughts.

  33. AFriendofAFriend

    I can understand all your opinions on this latest episode. But I can’t quite say what to make of that episode yet though… Something felt very weird. Maybe the whole ghost-canon being mixed up is a part of it… I don’t know. I think I have to re-watch it to build a better opinion.

    But what got me from the get go is in how much pain Dean is. No matter what direction something goes, hell, I myself – and I’m sure the Winchesters as well – have lost all feeling for telling whether whatever happens is actually a good thing or a bad thing. It doesn’t even matter anymore, for Dean it means pain. And I agree with you all that JA delivered Deans despair in his acting perfectly. It was heartbreaking to watch.

    I am pleasantly surprised that Dean is not happy about Bobby being a ghost at ALL. I really never thought it would be like this. Dean in his attitude near burning the flask and Sam wanting to keep it (and so Bobby) around. If we discussed it on here, I think we always were pretty sure it would be the other way round. One of the most telling scenes to me is the ending scene, not just the talj between the brothers, but how Dean throws the flask in the trunk. This is a pretty big thing for him. And it says a lot.

    So I kind of like that it’s differnent from the way I thought it would be. With Dean not happy about Bobby really being a ghost and Sam sort of – almost glad – of Bobby being back. The thing is, as you all pointed out before, it doesn’t help Deans mental health one bit that he knows Bobby is around for sure, I actually think it has made things worse for Dean.

    At this point I’m just so lost and confused. I’m right there in the car with Sam and Dean in the ending scene; with absolutely no idea how to deal with this. Hell, I can even understand why Dean feels the need to drink (even though I could imagine him giving up the drinking now that he knows that in a way it’s connected to Bobby and in a way I think it’s freaking him out a bit). How could anyone really process all of this without… I don’t know… just without wanting to escape your own head. I know I would want to… So I can relate to Dean.

    Oh, and even though I really love the 7th season for the close look we got on Dean (at least I think I got one), I’m a bit disappointed that all upcoming episodes just give me the slight feeling of not adding up. Not emotionally, not in storytelling. Nada. And that troubles me. But hey, maybe the writer will surprise us (I doubt it though, and that hurts even more) and the last 4 episodes are going to be killer and some of our theories will come to fruition. 🙂 And even if they aren’t, I just hope that Dean (and I don’t mean that in a bad way) will really hit breaking point by the end of this season like Jensen Ackles sort of mentioned in an interview a few weeks back. I’ve said it before. True breaking point for Dean has been long overdue. And I’d love to see that happening. And right now, after this episode, I feel like Dean has gotten a whole bunch of steps further to breaking down. It kind of is the only thing this episode pushed as a possibility to me.

    Okay, I’m done for now. Need to re-watch the episode. Right now my feelings are so all over the place I think I’m unable to write a lot more.

  34. Ginger

    Paula: Don’t you think that Bobby getting more powerful because the villain ghost was touching him when he was burned be instead that Bobby is now possessed by the evil ghost; therefore, having to fight against the organic turning vengeful a normal ghost does, as well as fighting the evil from the possession? I’m seeing perhaps a Being Human kind of thing you were talking about as Bobby’s S8 story.

  35. castiel'scat

    Not a fan of this episode. It could have had very scary moments and didn’t. It felt more jumbled than bai. Luner’s character had little purpose. I wondered if the writers just loved the idea of lady hunter that boned all three. Yuk. She did voice the hunters position about ghosts…. we all knew that and Garth voiced it last week. Ghostbusters was fun and the boys were uber competent in it. This was neither although I agree they were not given much to do.

    I had assumed that if ghost Bobby stayed he had more info to give. Apparently not.

    Bobby did look pissed at the end. He knows that is the best of hunters. I expect Bobby to spirit away the flask at some point. Sam seemed to flipflop… however he has always been the monster advocate. Dean will definitely want to salt and burn.

    So Bobby got the bad ghost’s mojo at the end?

    I repeat it would be so interesting for tptb to go there with Dean… make him more than human. It would be fascinating to watch him wrap his head around it, given his hardline hunter mentality.

    Isis… schoolteacher with wonder-necklace that turned her into Isis. I too loved it way back when.

    1. castiel'scat

      Aargh. Meant ghostfacers of course. Also was trying to say that Bobby knows how good of a hunter Dean is. In other words… Dean will be flaming him.

  36. Lily

    Just a quick note about last night’s episode. The one thing I took away from it was Dean’s belief in the natural order. He was not too thrilled to see Bobby and that to me was everything. He is staying true to his character and I thought Sam entertaining the idea of making it work with ghost Bobby was a bit off. Dean knew this was not going to end well.

    Thanks Paula, and I look forward to Monday’s review!

  37. Cassieo

    Well, I liked the episode and was very shocked that Dean wasn’t happy to see Bobby for sure. But that’s because Dean thought Bobby was safe in heaven, or so they said. But really the writers just had to through a curve in it again. The knew people wanted a happy reunion so they had to ruin it. I’m going to guess they try similar crap with the impala in 7.23. Nothing new here.

    And NO ONE even talked about burning the flask. I don’t know where anyone got that idea. I didn’t have time to read all the posts here, but I thought I saw it briefly.

    Paula, I know you don’t like Bobby, but Dean always did. That reaction was so out of character it was terrible.I really wish the writers would stop tring to get interest by hurting fans. Whether people like Bobby or not, that was not the way to depict the reunion. I don’t like that kind of trickery.

    As for Sam, this was the first time I found him half way acceptable. No whining, no arguing, no comments, just asking Dean’s advise and following his lead. As for Sam messing up the Bobby tests, they tried to write it off as Sam couldn’t detect Bobby because he was with Dean and of course, Sam did this with out Dean’s knowledge or approval. THAT was mistake number one. Had he not gone behind Dean’s back, the board would have worked. BUT he still messed up with the flask. He is supposed to be a top-notch hunter and should have reasoned that if Bobby was around, he would have to be tied to an object of Bobby’s and as he didn’t bother to keep a memento, it would have had to be Dean’s flask. If he still wanted to sneak a test, he could have tried while Dean was asleep. But nope, they didn’t even give him that much smarts. Geez…Garth caught on to the flask even and I think he is supposed to be not as good and the boys. I just don’t think the writers like Sam at all.

    I also don’t understand why they keep it up with the drinking. I’m guessing the whole point of the flask was to have an object of Bobby’s around. I’m guessing Dean will not use it now and just carry it..or Maybe Bobby will carry it himself. Whatever the do, the drinking stuff needs to be dropped. He no longer has a need for it, and no he will not be upset because Bobby is back. If anyone goes down that road they will be disappointed. The didn’t kill Dean as a vamp, they won’t kill Bobby as a ghost.

    The promo shows them working together just fine next week. And no I don’t buy that it was edited to look like that. Bobby helps until he has problems, if he does have problems, and than maybe Dean will be concerned, but it will only spur Dean on to finding a way to help Bobby, not drink or go insane. That possibility is over. The writers killed it. Besides They don’t have enough episodes left to do that this season anymore.

    As I said, I didn’t have time to read all the new posts, so if I repeated anything, I’m sorry.

    Oh and Paula, that last post of mine was supposed to be a reply to one of Gingers, but it ended up in the wrong place.

    1. Laurie

      @Cassieo I think you are dead right in the way the writers and show runner have used “trickery” to build expectation for the fans, only to deliberately give them the opposite of what they hope for.

      I think it’s cheap drama. They quote the idea that drama is conflict, and this is their cheap way of getting it. The writers aren’t able to write it in the script, so they cause a whiplash of disappointment, thinking their “deep.”

      Well, drama is conflict, but “entertainment” means getting a good payoff for the pain you invest. This show used to be genius at it, but the last few years, there is ZERO payoff for the investment.

      I watch for JA’s acting and for Dean. The brothers relationship is written well so rarely, that I don’t expect it like I used to. They’ve left me no enjoyment, through stripping all the former higlights, using that “trickery” too much, for too little. At least JA never ever disappoints. Though my God they waste that man’s talent.

      1. Cassieo

        I only watch for JA too. He is the only one that is keeping the show going as far as I’m concerned. And yes, I so dislike the tactics the series uses. Not all drama is heartbreak, sadness and death. The series NEVER has a happy ending and, especially in this economy, people only want to see happy right now.

        Most say the lose of viewers is ‘normal and expected’ but I disagree. If they would give the fans a chance and give them what they are looking for, the numbers would not have dropped to 1.5mil an episode. Really bad.

      2. Paula R. Stiles

        Being unemployed would waste his talent even more.

        Ackles is not stupid. After SPN finally ends, he can do pretty much what he wants, creatively. He can do indie stuff, theatre, stuff that might not be commercially viable, all because (as long as he’s managed his money well) he doesn’t need to worry about where the money comes from. Plus, he has a faithful audience that will follow him from project to project, he can qualify for awards, and his agent is definitely taking his calls. All things that don’t happen when you are unemployed in Hollywood.

        So, Ackles isn’t wasting his talent, really, at all.

  38. Lily

    I forgot all about the shredding of ghosts. I have to admit I was falling a sleep so I might have missed a few things. But I remembered the part where the ghost was shredding other ghosts. So Carver might be influencing writers since Being Human’s Sally was shredding ghosts too.
    On another note, Yuk and big yuk that all three of them shagged the same hunter.

  39. castiel'scat

    I think Dean wasn’t happy to see Bobby because he is a good hunter. They gave Bobby a hunters burial for a reason. Our assumption was that he would be happy because he was crazy enough to want Bobby back whatever the cost. He isn’t that crazy yet. Except for the time Sam talked him into sparing Lenore’s nest, and of course sparing demonically powered sam himself, he has been firm about killing the supernatural (or at least trying in the case of witches)

    Sam is the one whose judgement is sometimes lacking because he sees shades of grey regarding monsters. They both reacted true to character and it was hard for Dean to see ghost Bobby knowing that he will have to be put down. That emotion came through clearly at the end of the episode. He rejected him by throwing the flask into the trunk.

    The anger is inevitable for ghostbobby. Patience has never been his strong suit. Dean’s rejection and the final episodes will likely send him towards rage, especially now that we have been told rage makes ghosts more effective. The fact he is now megaghostbobby is very scary.

    That said, I think it is highly likely that he will be resurrected. I do not see him sticking around for long as a ghost. It goes against the natural order in the supernatural universe.

    I hate the drinking. Now that we know it wasn’t tied to a going postal arc, it simply weakens dean- making him a Bobby in training (the town drunk)

    I liked that Dean was the leader again.

  40. AFriendofAFriend

    Just a short note. I re-watched the episode and I have to admit that after watching it a second time I liked the episode a whole lot more than I did when I watched it the first time. Sure there are flaws and I still have some weird feeling about it, but overall I think I liked it. It won’t make my personal favourite SPN episode list, but I think there were episodes a lot worse.

    Things I liked: the brother scenes (even though overall I think there weren’t enough Winchester scenes in that episode, a little less Bobby would have done, too) I know lots of people think the brothers are distant, I disagree, I think they are very close this season and I think the shower scene/open door just showcases that (to me those small things show that both boys are, now that the devil isn’t riding shotgun in Sam’s head any longer, comfortable around each other, feel safe), the way Dean is handling Ghost!Bobby. He’s not a happy camper about it and the way he throws the flask in the trunk at the end of the episode is pretty telling, the prospect of Ghost!Bobby turning into a mean ghost (Ghost!Bobby in general isn’t working for me, if they want Jim beaver around he has to be around in the flesh and blood).

    @castiel’scat and @Cassieo: I agree with you. The drinking should be dropped. If it’s not leading anywhere (if it was really just to show Dean’s attachment to the flask/his grief – even tough even before Bobby and Castiel died Dean drank a lot this season to be honest) it’s really just in the way, but I’m pretty he’ s going to give it up now. Throwing the flask in the trunk to me wasn’t an act of showing just his disappointment in Bobby’s decision to get stuck, but also his decision to finally let go of this coping mechanism, which after all, now that Bobby’s still around has no use.

  41. Cassieo

    @castiel’scat and @AFriendofAFriend

    Thanks for making me feel better. I just get so mad at TPTB for constantly causing angst and heartache. Dean is a rebel. His love for Bobby is very deep. No way would the real Dean be upset at Bobby. Concerned for his well being yes, but upset like they portrayed…no. And in the promo for next week, they are working together fine. And they better have nice hug between the two in the works too. And no I don’t believe Dean will ever burn the flask. Bobby is not an unknown ghost, he will get Bobby resurrected somehow. Some fans won’t like it and some will.

    As for the drinking, that is just SG way of degrading Dean and making JA angry. She should have dropped it long ago. She was not happy that he dissed her last season and I’m told that didn’t stop with just the public interview. Many feel JA had a hand in getting SG out and if that’s the case, hat’s off to him! Anyway, that’s why she is trying so hard to make the character unappealing…the drinking, drugs, upset with Bobby. Here’s hoping her influence ended with that episode, and we will start to see some healing going on. I still say Carver has a hand in the ending this season, and the Ghost!Bobby is a good hint. If he does with Bobby what he did with Sally, which would be cool. In case you’re wondering, no Sally didn’t go vengeful, but it was fun to watch her recover. And I’m guessing after that, Bobby will be back. At least that’s what I hope as do many others. Guess we have to wait for season 8 to be sure.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Absolutely would the “real” Dean be upset at Bobby because Bobby is dead and is now a ghost. He would be equally upset if Bobby had deliberately gone out and got himself vamped, with the inevitability that he would eventually drink human blood, have to be ganked, and end up in Purgatory. Bobby is no longer Bobby. He is Ghost!Bobby. Even if he were resurrected at some point, the character has been pretty ruined along the lines of Grandpa Shady.

      And Dean has been drinking since season four. It’s not something you just drop because that’s not the way it goes in real life. My main beef with it is that it isn’t allowed to go anywhere as a storyline, not, at this point, that it’s there. That ship has long since sailed.

      And yes, Sally absolutely *did* go vengeful, in both seasons. But that discussion belongs on the “Being Human” threads. Not everyone here is likely to have watched “Being Human”, yet.

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