TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/07/12

This entry is part 10 of 26 in the series Spoilers 2012: Part 1

This week, we have spoilers for Once Upon a Time, Doctor Who and Supernatural:

Once Upon a Time (Sunday nights, 8pm, ABC)
By Heather S. Vina

ABC released the press release for the episode “Hat Trick” with the Mad Hatter:

“The Who’s Roger Daltrey Guest Stars as the Voice of a Talking Caterpillar – EMMA IS KIDNAPPED BY A MAN WHOSE SANITY TEETERS ON THE EDGE OF MADNESS, AND THE EVIL QUEEN PERSUADES A MAN OF MAGIC TO STEAL SOMETHING FROM THE QUEEN OF HEARTS, ON ABC’S ONCE UPON A TIME:

“‘Hat Trick’ – While searching for a missing Mary Margaret, Emma is kidnapped by a man whose affinity for hats has him teetering on the edge of madness. Meanwhile, viewers will be transported outside of the fairytale land that was for the first time when the Evil Queen persuades a skillful man of magic to come work for her one last time and travel to Wonderland in order to help steal something from the Queen of Hearts, on Once Upon a Time, SUNDAY, MARCH 25 (8:00-9:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

Once Upon a Time stars Ginnifer Goodwin as Snow White/Mary Margaret, Jennifer Morrison as Emma Swan, Robert Carlyle as Rumpelstiltskin/Mr. Gold, Lana Parrilla as Evil Queen/Regina, Josh Dallas as Prince Charming/David, Eion Bailey as August, Jared Gilmore as Henry Mills, and Raphael Sbarge as Jiminy Cricket/Archie Hopper.

“Guest starring are Tony Perez as Valet, Giancarlo Esposito as Sidney/Magic Mirror, Jennifer Koenig as Queen of Hearts, Sebastian Stan as Jefferson, Ali Skovbye as Paige/Grace, Donald Adams as Vendor, Roger Daltrey as Caterpillar (VO), Paul McGillion as Knave of Hearts, Laura Wilson as Mrs. Grace, and Scott E. Miller as Mr. Grace.

“‘Hat Trick’ was written by Vladimir Cvetko & David H. Goodman and directed by Ralph Hemecker.”

I find it really interesting that Eion Bailey (August) is listed in the main cast, instead of under guest-starring. Last press release, he was listed in both places, so I figured it was a typo. This one, he’s only listed in the main cast. Hmmm….

From last week, TVGuide had up the first pictures of Sebastian Stan as the Mad Hatter. I’m looking forward to this episode, I hope it’s good!

Well, lots of new info as a result of the Paleyfest appearance by the show. All of the main cast (except for Jared Gilmore, who seems to never get to go anywhere for the show, poor kid! Interestingly enough, even Raphael Sbarge came, and considering he hasn’t been on the show for a while, I was kind of surprised to see him. Though, considering Archie features in the spoilers, maybe it’s not so surprising) made the appearance, as well as showrunners Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz. Clarissa over at TVOvermind has a great article up about it, synopsising all of the spoilers from the panel.

I’m most interested in who August is and what will go down between Gold and Regina, now that they know what is up with the other’s memories. Although I think Gold always knew Regina remembered; she didn’t know he did.

I haven’t seen it revealed anywhere online yet, but TVGMagazine – who was at the panel – tweeted that they showed the first ten minutes of next week’s episode and it revealed the identity of the Big Bad Wolf character. Still have no idea – of the characters that we have seen so far – who it could be.

TVAddict had a quote from Edward about the Huntsman coming back and the Sheriff’s death. Pretty much the same thing he keeps saying when being asked about killing off that character and whether Jamie Dornan would come back.

TV Guide had an interview with Edward and Adam up regarding the Red Riding Hood-centric episode, “Red Handed”.

Matt at TVLine has another familiar soundbite from Adam and Edward regarding why the “true love kiss” between David and Mary didn’t break the spell they were under. Translation: because they are going to drag out the curse forever and neither true love nor parental love will win the day over evil! ‘Cause evil keeps them in business!

Ausiello at TVLine has an interesting little quote from Robert Carlyle on what’s up with Rump and the curse:

Question: What’s next with regards to Regina and Mr. Gold’s battle on Once Upon a Time? – Joy
Ausiello: ‘Certain things happen toward the last five or six episodes that shake our relationship,’ teases Robert Carlyle. ‘You realize that maybe Rumpelstiltskin [didn't create the curse] for her at all; maybe he was doing it for himself. Maybe the curse was created for him.’”

Jane Espenson on Twitter revealed that she wouldn’t be “surprised” to see Belle return for the finale.

Mega Buzz at TV Guide had up an interesting quote from Edward about Gold and Regina, bringing up the fact that Gold as Rump is the one who created this curse, and yet, let the Evil Queen unleash it.

Once Upon a Time scoop, please! – Billy
NATALIE: Now that Regina has discovered that Mr. Gold knows the truth about the curse, ‘their relationship is definitely going to change,’ executive producer Edward Kitsis says, noting that both their motives will become clear in the coming episodes. Lest we forget, Rumpelstiltskin did create the curse that the Evil Queen unleashed. ‘The question that I would ask is: Why would somebody create a curse that they didn’t themselves employ and for what reason? That is a question we’re going to answer this year,’ he says.

They also posted something regarding the Evil Queen’s early years:

“When will we learn what Snow White did that made the Evil Queen hate her so much on Once Upon a Time? – Sarah
NATALIE: April 1 is the magical day. So much is revealed in the hour that Lana Parrilla says she was surprised the story wasn’t spread over several episodes. ‘You’ll meet young Regina,’ she says. ‘I look totally different – fresh-faced, doe-eyed, young, fun, excited about life, in love, and then it just gets really dark. It’s way before she becomes the Evil Queen.’ Adds Ginnifer Goodwin, ‘Folks will sympathize with the Evil Queen in ways they’re not expecting.’”

Yea, sorry, Ginny, but I don’t think so. She’s done way too much for me to feel sympathy for her now.

And finally, the TV Guide issue featuring Once Upon A Time is out on the stands, and the site has a taste of the article inside here: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Once-Upon-Time-Set-1044486.aspx

Kristin at E! had the bit about Archie getting new patients (Gold and David) up in her most recent spoiler chat.

And finally, the ratings for the show are in. It received a 3.4/9 in the demos, and 10.67 million viewers, which is up from last week!

Doctor Who (Saturday nights, 9pm, BBC America)
By Heather S. Vina

According to TV Guide, John Barrowman (Captain Jack) has been cast in a pilot for ABC from Shonda Rhimes (Grey’s Anatomy, Private Practice) called “Gilded Lily“. According to the article, “The project is an upstairs-downstairs look at the opening of the first true luxury hotel built in New York City circa 1895. Barrowman will play Julius Ashford Lily, the golden boy of the prestigious Lily family opening the hotel. He’s Mama’s favorite son, who’s very charming, lucky and loose.”

Congrats to Captain Jack!

Freema Agyeman has been cast in the CW pilot, The Carrie Diaries, about the early days of the lead character from Sex and the City.

Toby Whitehouse, one of the writers of Doctor Who and a showrunner on the UK version of Being Human, spoke to Hollywood Reporter about both shows. Since it contains Being Human spoilers, I will just share the relevant Doctor Who bits here:

THR: What can you say about working on Doctor Who and what’s next there?

Whithouse: In terms of the series as a whole, I know…there are quite a few things I know. I know some plans for the new Companion and that kind of thing. The one downside of working on Doctor Who is that you know what’s coming up. I knew who River Song was months and months and months before most other people, and it was great. Doctor Who is not necessarily a job I need to do because Being Human keeps me very busy, but I love it.

THR: Fans of the show were surprised when it was announced there would be a new Companion. Were you aware of it?

Whithouse: To be honest, it was probably more of a mutual decision than people would assume. These things tend to be kind of agreed, particularly the Companions have a natural shelf life. I know a bit about the new Companion. I don’t know who they cast and even if I did, if I told you, Steven Moffat would come out here and punch me in the neck. Steven is one of the cleverest, most inventive people I’ve ever met in my life, and so, you know it is in very safe hands with him. If he makes decisions, the chances are it’s for the best; it’s the best thing for the show.”

Interesting! I can’t wait to find out who the new Companion is and whom they have cast!

Supernatural (Friday nights, 9pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

Ausiello dropped a casting spoiler: “The show is looking to cast a male or female Asian teenager to play a brilliant overachiever whose world ‘is suddenly turned upside-down when he/she unwittingly becomes a prophet of sorts.’ The character will appear in this season’s final three episodes.” It seems he took this wholesale from the site “Angry Asian Man” (Ask Kristin also got into the “Let’s not attribute our spoilers to any sources” act), which was passing along a casting call. The call also reported that 7.21 will be written and directed by Ben Edlund and will begin filming on March 15. For those keeping count, the Executive Producers listed are: “Robert Singer, Sera Gamble, Phil Sgriccia, McG,” in that order (though, when asked if Gamble might be leaving, producer Jim Michaels insisted she wasn’t). The episode’s name has been changed from “In Case of Emergency” to “Reading is Fundamental”, because the final episode titles this season remain the gift that keeps on sucking.

The character is 15 and is named ‘K. Tran’ (indicating a possibly Vietnamese character). Angry Asian Male demonstrated the same skepticism I’m feeling about it – namely, that the character sounds like a raging cliche. Contrary to speculation I’ve seen bandied about, there have been several Asian characters on the show (the latest, I believe, being Dick’s assistant in “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”), especially if you remember the South Asian ones (like Kali and Stewie), but it is true that the only recurring one so far has been Maggie from “Ghostfacers”. In addition, the character is a teen (not a group terribly well-portrayed by the show, or TV in general) and sounds like Luke Skywalker. Ask me if I care about K. Tran in the middle of a storyline about Leviathans, though I suspect Tran may not be a biblical prophet, but connected to the Bigmouths in some way.

I think my biggest problem with it, though, is that it’s the biggest spoiler all week and it’s about what is bound to be a minor, new character, recurring or not. This is not the kind of spoiler info I’m looking for, show. That said, I’d like the thank Angry Asian Male for it, since the show certainly didn’t leak this one on its own.

Late edit: From today’s print issue of TV Guide:

“A pair of cursed ballet slippers that drove a ballerina to dance herself to death can only mean one thing: The possibility of seeing one or both of the Winchester brothers going all Black Swan!”

Hmm, this is rather a curious situation, isn’t it? We already know for a fact that Sam will have a major breakdown and need to be committed to a mental hospital in 7.17. We already know that Dean will be cursed with some kind of psychotically obsessive (and self-destructive) behaviour in 7.16, since Black Swan is about a ballerina who has a massive nervous breakdown. So, we’ve got info about two situations that really ought to lead one into the other – except that they’re for separate brothers. Could it be Sam won’t be the only one committed in 7.17, but that Dean will have to break out alone because Sam is catatonic or otherwise incapacitated?

The 7.17 synopsis is up:

“MISHA COLLINS RETURNS!! – Lucifer (guest star Mark Pellegrino) drives Sam (Jared Padalecki) to the breaking point and Sam ends up in a mental hospital. Desperate to save his brother, Dean (Jensen Ackles) calls every hunter he knows for help. One of the hunters gives him the name of a healer who turns out to have a very familiar face (guest star Misha Collins). Robert Singer directed the episode written by Sera Gamble (##717).”

Not anything there no one knew, already, except for the part about Castiel – sorry, whatever character Misha Collins is playing being a healer. Though, even then, many fans called it months ago that Castiel might be the one who ended up healing Sam. It kind of sounds as though Sam actually won’t be in this one much, unless the mental hospital stuff has any active connection to Dean’s hunt to Save Sam.

It appears that Felicia Day will be guest-starring in 7.20 and there is a screencap up from the credits sequence in 7.17, showing a doctor talking to someone (perhaps Dean, perhaps an orderly) while in his office. Probably Sam’s shrink.

Misha Collins gave a short interview in which he talked about “Castiel” being a healer, and that his new character arc would go from “naive” to “contrite”.

Guy Norman Bee gave an interview this week, in which he talked a lot about past Supernatural episodes, and dropped some hints about his dream team for his upcoming episode, but no spoilers.

There was a big convention in Burbank last weekend…and the only spoilers that appear to have come out of it were that Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles will be doing a commentary for “Slash Fiction” that will appear on the season seven DVD and that filming for 7.20 started on Monday. Also, according to Ackles, the lack of the handprint in “The Slice Girls” was an oversight not deliberate, and that, if Dean could do it all again, he would never have gone to Lisa and Ben. Jim Michaels claimed the handprint was healed in “Swan Song”. Hmm, sounds like an oversight now being handwaved to me.

Set pics from 7.19 (last week) show a creepy looking mansion, lots of snow in Vancouver, and Sam looking remarkably robust for just having had a massive nervous breakdown. Contrary to rumours that they took a week off, Padalecki and Ackles were spotting shooting all week in the area.

Bob Singer will direct the season finale.

The show was nominated for a Saturn award in the Best Series category. And Jim Michaels was listed in a TV Guide article about people you should follow on Twitter.

Jeffrey Dean Morgan gave yet another interview saying he was unlikely ever to appear on Supernatural again and the reasons he thought why. Fans who seemed unaware that he’s been saying the same thing for years used his statements to angrily lambaste the showrunners for not asking him back. Because the show hasn’t already cheapened death in its story by bringing back everyone and their mother. John is dead and doesn’t need to be in the story, anymore. Let it go, folks.

Finally, ratings for last Thursday’s episode were 0.3/2 and 950 thousand, which was up slightly from last week’s 0.3/1 and 930 thousand in audience, while last Friday’s episode was down to a 0.3/1 and 1.03 million. And, once again, the Live+7 ratings went up from a 0.8 to 1.2 for the February 17 episode.

We’ll be back next week with more spoilers. Stay tuned and check out our reviews of Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, The Event, Once Upon a Time, and Supernatural.

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IFPTV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/07/12

42 Comments on “TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/07/12”

  1. Crowley_Gal

    Thanks for the round up Paula. I hadn’t seen the episode 19 pics yet. I love a good old fashioned haunting. I think this is the episode with the former flame wasn’t it?

    I’m not sure how I feel about the new spoiler. I think I need more info, but to me he sounds like a new deux ex machina who will tell the boys how to defeat the leviathans. I hope not since my two favorite victories were Mother of All and Zachariah because of the out of the box thinking. Drinking the phoenix ash was brillant. So was Dean’s condition that Michael had to off Zach before Dean would say yes.

    Although, i’d love it if they used the character to explain some of the mysteries surrounding Dean.

    I’m not sure if you saw these
    http://newsflic.blogspot.com/2012/03/supernatural-on-location-march-6th.html?spref=tw

    but they are from episode 20. It looks like Dean is going on a trip of some sort since they are at a bus terminal and he’s carrying a bag

  2. shamangrrl

    I can’t even get excited about Castiel’s return, given the lame ass spoilers. And did I hear correctly, that Meg will return in the same episode? I hope not, because after the last time Cas and Meg were in the same episode, that was it for me. Actually, Meg has sort of worn out her welcome with me. She was an awesome character, but her last few appearences haven’t done a thing for me. And the casting spoiler just makes me shake my head. Personally, I think it might be a foiler, but as I said, I can’t get worked up either way.

  3. Ginger

    God, I wished the show would move on from teenagers and kids. I’m cringing already, too. First, Krissy the Master Hunter; stereotypical teen brat, then Dean’s 16-year old daughter, and now Asian awesome prophet.

    Oh, well. Maybe it’s best there have been spoilers coming out. Now I don’t have to dread…I mean…think about it so much. Taking what you get seems like a good plan.

  4. Paula R. Stiles

    @Crowley_Gal
    7.19 is the episode with the former flame, yes. There has been speculation she’s dead as a doornail.

    I think the biggest problem with the “prophet” spoiler is that it’s so vague as to be practically a non-spoiler (The info about who’s writing and directing the episode is more instructive).

    I didn’t see the photos earlier, as they went up after I posted the column (though I did do a late edit for the 7.16 synopsis from TV Guide, which never seems to be capable of arriving before Wednesdays at my house).

    I was going to say that if Castiel the Healer heals Dean of his season-long depression in 7.17, I’m going to be very angry (though having them do it in Lost-Girl fashion would at least amuse me and be groundbreaking for American horror TV, but I don’t see that happening). However, from the looks of those pictures, Dean isn’t doing at all well, ’cause he looks really rough. And that does look like a bus terminal not an airport terminal. They’re getting on the bus, the gates are too close together for an airport, and there are no shots during takes of Dean shrieking and clinging to doors in a most undignified manner.

    Somebody said in the spn_party comments that his flight phobia hasn’t been referenced again since “Phantom Traveler”–this is not true. Much was made in “Weekend at Bobby’s” of Dean’s spending the whole flight to Scotland barfing in terror and clinging to a spork for protection (I’m sure the flight attendants just luuurrrved him). In addition, “Yellow Fever” indicated he was afraid of heights and he was greatly afeared of that cherry-picker in “Adventures in Babysitting”.

    He and Sam are gonna have so much fun on the bus, too. [/sarcasm] I remember the last time I took Greyhound. It was…interesting. Not quite as interesting as traveling second class in West Africa, but still full of colourful characters, some of whom had had neither a bath nor all the McNuggets in their Happy Meals for quite some time.

    @shamangrrl
    Rachel Miner’s supposed to be back. If you look at the bit in the promo where Misha Collins is turning to face two people, those people look like Dean and Meg from the back.

    @Ginger
    Not necessarily, though. The spoiler is very vague. We don’t know if this kid really will be a “prophet” in the sense we’re thinking of. Remember when they put out a casting call for Castiel and they called him a “demon”? This kid could, for all we know, be some Cabbage Patch Kid produced by the field in Wisconsin, some super Leviathan messiah. We need to be cautious about taking the casting calls too much at face value.

    As I was telling someone the other day, “It’s like having people ask about when Snow and Charming will get together and have them respond with, ‘We’ve cast Regina’s garden gnome! He’s a very important new character!’”

  5. Arafel

    “A pair of cursed ballet slippers that drove a ballerina to dance herself to death can only mean one thing: The possibility of seeing one or both of the Winchester brothers going all Black Swan!”

    This one is new to me, and IA with your thought that it’s likely that we’ll get one brother’s “breakdown” leading into the other’s, Paula. I’m a little hopeful of getting a kind of DemonHunterDeanExtraordinaire a la early S2 out of this somehow, but we’ll see. Thanks again for supplying the spoilers.

  6. Sherry

    The 7.18 synopsis is up.

    [quote]GARTH IS BACK TO HELP THE WINCHESTERS — Dean (Jensen Ackles) is surprised when he gets a call from Garth (guest star DJ Qualls) asking for the brothers’ help on a case. Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean discover they are battling a Shojo, a Japanese creature sent to seek revenge on enemies. The worst part about fighting a Shojo? You can only see it when you’re drunk. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Adam Glass (#718)

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Arafel
      You’re welcome! It could be TV Guide’s own exaggeration, but yes, it does appear to support the idea that Dean’s breakdown will be in tandem with or kicked off by Sam’s (which is hardly a surprise. Yeah, Sam’s flipping out, but take away Fauxifer and he will be fine. Dean’s issues are much more complicated and can’t possibly be made better by Sam ending up in a madhouse). It’s not as though Sam needs for Dean to be cursed by a pair of shoes to flip out at this point. There are some photos out now, too – seems they still have John’s locker since the curse boxes are back.

      @Sherry
      Thanks for the info. Fighting this MOTW oughtta be a breeze! Just hand Dean his usual bottle of the day and let him go to it!

      Seriously, though, another Adam Glass script? *Again*?! Expect misogyny and plotholes galore. And what is up with yet another lame Japanese monster that is nothing like the original folklore? Yeesh.

      Looks like Sam’s breakdown will last for only 7.17, when it comes right down to it.

  7. Lily

    @Paula: I was going to say that if Castiel the Healer heals Dean of his season-long depression in 7.17, I’m going to be very angry (though having them do it in Lost-Girl fashion would at least amuse me and be groundbreaking for American horror TV, but I don’t see that happening).

    LOL!!! Yeah, I wouldn’t mind seeing Bo and Dean do a little healing!
    Thanks Paula! You always give me a good laugh, especially after a crappy day!

  8. Ginger

    Well, it better be Garth that gets drunk, ’cause I would sure hate to see him Dean has to depend on him to pull his butt out of the fire if things go south…and when don’t they.

    Adam Glass…ugh. What’s up with the lame Japanese monster? Oh, you know, just some more redundancy.

    An interview from TV Guide and Misha:

    http://www.tvguide.com/News/Supernatural-Misha-Collins-1044574.aspx

    Collins says, “Dean is definitely looking to lean on the character for help.” It seems Castiel is no longer the Winchester brothers’ enemy…also some big experience in the works for Cas.

    Teenager prophets, Meg working with the brothers (since she is with Dean when he meets Cas), Cas himself there for Dean to lean on, Garth…none of this inspires anticipation for me. I’ll watch Jensen, but I don’t expect great things; just more okay, not terrible episodes.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      There’s a sneak peek up of 7.16 now:

      http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/03/supernatural-episode-716-out-with-old_09.html

      Looks like Sam is being totally honest about his crazy. And Dean is not. And Sam didn’t notice. Hmm.

      @Ginger
      Since Dean drinks enough to put most of us under the table on a daily basis, and acts sober, I think it’s a given he will be able to see that particular MOTW. The question is how loaded Sam and Garth will need to get in order to do so.

      I think that Collins statement may be code for: “Dean desperately needs someone to lean on and right now, he’ll take whatever he can get.” Sure, some of the spoilers are lame, but what little we’re getting about Dean is intriguingly ominous.

  9. Paula R. Stiles

    This may sound odd, but…does anyone else ever wonder if maybe there’s no one else on the other end of the line during those phone calls Dean has with Frank? I keep thinking of that doctor in the hospital in “Sam, Interrupted”, how long it seemed that she was real, only for us to discover along with Dean that she was an hallucination. It’s been quite a while since anyone but Dean has seen Frank (since Sam met him in “Slash Fiction”, essentially). I could see him still being alive while Bobby was, because Bobby mentioned him. But since then, I just get the impression there’s some kind of twist coming with Frank. It feels as though the pattern all season has been to be up front and even oversharing about Sam’s storyline, while almost completely obscuring Dean’s, and that they are using all the handwaving about Sam’s “breakdown” (which sounds like it will last about five minutes) and Castiel’s return to hide something big coming down the pike with Dean. A little like what they did with Castiel last season, only, every episode.

    1. Crowley_Gal

      That’s an interesting theory, Paula. I’d like to see the writers take that route in that it’s actually Dean whose been the crazy one all season.

      They did go weeks where Dean couldn’t get a hold of Frank and they speculated he might have been eaten by a levaithan. The whole scene with Frank in AIB could have been a hallucination.

      Its interesting that Dean pointed out Dick is everywhere yet Frank couldn’t find anything on him. It could be another clue because aside from a phone call Dean’s not really doing much to go after Roman. It may be Dean that can’t find anything.

      1. Paula R. Stiles

        Well, it just seems too linear and we’ve had a fair bit of non-linearity this season. The thing is that we know for a fact Dean’s not well. Everybody and their mother has talked about it. So, we know that is something intentional and not some riff Jensen Ackles is doing. It’s in the script, just like the stuff about weird things happening around him. So, we know those things are intentional and not just speculation.

        Also, there is always some kind of dichotomy between the brothers, where, when one is being upfront and honest, the other is lying like a rug and hiding something. Here, we have Sam being very honest and upfront about his hallucinations all season long (which, personally, I find refreshing and which is about the only thing I really like about his Fauxifer storyline), as opposed to the past few seasons, when he was lying and keeping secrets from Dean. This season, Dean is the one lying and keeping secrets from Sam (not to mention everyone else). And every time Sam asks him about how he’s doing, Dean goes, “Umm…next question.”

        I just feel there is something up with Frank. We know he wasn’t a Leviathan as of “Adventures in Babysitting” because of the cutting test, but that doesn’t have to mean he’s real. And he does seem to be awfully ineffective after finding that field. Plus, we already have the motif of Sam talking to his invisible buddy (and the show does love parallels between the brothers, too).

        I dunno. Maybe I’m just hoping for a twist, but I feel there’s more evidence this season than last season, when it came almost out of nowhere (or even season five, when there was no twist), for one to be coming down the pike and I can’t see where they could have hidden one in Sam’s storyline. I’ve seen speculation that the past season and a half has all been inside Sam’s head, but not only is a “Bobby in the shower” twist utterly lame, even for this show, it’s also probably not logistically doable. But a twist near the end, where we find out Dean’s completely out of his mind and there’s a very big and ugly cliffhangery reason why, that’s quite doable on their budget.

        Dean’s current state of mind reminds me of a cop show from a while back where a Homicide detective was having a huge nervous breakdown over a long period of time, and hiding it. There’s an episode, a few episodes before we get a big clue just how messed up he is, where he shows up at the scene of a possible murder. They have to evaluate whether this guy killed his wife and whether or not he’s clinically and legally insane. Except for one really creepy moment, the detective acts and talks as if he’s perfectly fine–but he’s filthy, he looks as though he’s slept in his clothes for days, and he’s got a week’s growth of beard (none of which anybody comments on). In fact, he looks a *lot* like the way they have Dean made up in the set pics from 7.20. It’s this jarring contrast between his behaviour, which is professional and seems fine, and his appearance, which makes him look like a homeless, unmedicated psychotic, that clues you in there’s something really wrong.

        That’s how I feel when I look at the way Dean is, as if there is something ugly coming up about his mental state, but we’re just getting dismissible hints right now.

  10. Ginger

    You know, Paula, I’ve thought for a long time now that this season is seeming very noir-ish to me; so, yeah, I am expecting some big twist at the end. I haven’t thought it would be with Frank, but it sure is likely that it might be. Not only has no one else not seen him on the show, but there’s been no mention of the actor going to film again. I’ve been looking for his name to appear (or the guy who plays Dick Roman), because I’m wondering when they get back to the Levi story. They start filming 7.20 this week, don’t they, and I’m not hearing anything about the Levi.

    I hope you aren’t suggesting that this whole season has been a dream of Sam’s while in a coma (or Dean’s, I suppose), as has been bantered around quite a bit over at WFB. That would be a way to easily bring Cas back on the show and Bobby back to life again.

    I do have to agree about Frank, though. It’s just odd that they have repeatedly shown Dean on the phone with him, and no Frnak and no Levi. It’s just odd.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Ginger
      I wrote the reply to Crowley_Gal before I saw your post, but uh, no, I don’t think the past season and a half has been all in Sam’s head. Aside from the fact that that would arguably suck even worse than when Dallas did it, I don’t think it’s logistically doable. Jim Beaver’s busy, Cindy Sampson’s in Antarctica on another project, and they’d still have to explain how Sam got out of Hell.

      Dean turning out to have been driven mad by Michael, or the Leviathans, or the fairies, or even just his own demons, now, that would be totally doable and would not even be a retcon. They’ve been telling us all year something’s off about Dean. The season has been a bit removed from his POV compared to Sam’s, so there’s more mystery surrounding Dean’s internal weather than Sam’s. There’s basically *no* mystery surrounding Sam’s internal weather right now. Hence the attempts to invent some by some fans.

      It’s hard to say what’s going on with McNally, as he just pops up in episodes and mostly has inside scenes. So, he could well be filming and we wouldn’t know. But it does seem pretty odd that Sam has never spoken to Frank since “Slash Fiction”, nor even asked to speak to him. With Bobby, we knew that was Bobby on the phone because the brothers would trade off asking him for info. Yet, now, we’ve got Dean paying Frank money and completely monopolising him. So, only Dean talks to him. It seems like a situation ripe for something to be very off and not at all what it seems.

  11. Ginger

    Well, Dick Roman did say they would have to try something more subtle, and Dean did give out a hint early on by saying all his marbles were locked in a box, so the Black Swan thing is possible. Also, SG said very early on that we’d see Adam *gag and choke* again, so the Michael thing is also possible.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Ginger
      Was I the only one who found it a tad ominous when Dean said he’s watched “Black Swan” twice? Sure, he was making a joke, but that’s a pretty trippy film and I can’t imagine why he’d watch the entire thing twice for what I’ve heard is a pretty short scene.

  12. Ginger

    Paua: You are better at seeing the ominous than I am, being more than somewhat jaded about the show’s handling of Dean’s character, so I will admit that I didn’t find that ominous. Rather, I thought it was written just for the ‘tu tu’ joke. What I found more curious is that Dean doesn’t even get to talk to Frank. Apparently, Frank just hangs up on him and Dean just chalks it up to Frank being nuts and off onto another small hunt they go.

  13. gija

    I’d also started wondering about Frank. How can he not find Dick Roman? Or know anything more about that field? I’d been thinking that there was something going on with Frank- I hadn’t really considered that the problem might lie with Dean himself. Interesting thought.

    About the magic reset button for next season- Jensen and Jared are among those pushing the idea and were thinking of talking about it with the producers. Jensen brought it up in his meet and greet this weekend- he thought it’d be a good way to bring back Misha and Jim Beaver, plus get rid of the Leviathans.

    Regarding Jim Beaver, I’d always assumed it had been his choice to leave the show and pursue other projects. But Jim seemed genuinely upset that Bobby had been killed off when he talked about it at the con. He also said he’d expected to be called back by now. So maybe it wasn’t his decision after all?

    Jensen did say that they forgot Cas’ handprint and were ready to reshoot the scene when someone came up with the “Cas healed Dean” explanation. When asked about Dean’s mental state, Jensen also felt that Dean was headed for a breakdown. He implied that the Dean-Cas relationship wouldn’t be entirely fixed by the end of 7.17 but that they might work on it during the last 3 episodes (although he hadn’t yet seen the scripts.) Otherwise, spoilers were few and far between this time around.

  14. castiel'scat

    Cas is really all the magic reset they need for Bobby. I think ot cannot be Sam’s dream because Dean has been the action man this season even to the point that Sam and Bobby wait for him to deal with the cas melting thing before getting down to business and of course we have the Sam lapses when he is off sulking or communing.

    There Is something about Dean…. Frank being imaginary at this point is interesting. I think he was real in aib because somehow Dean has surpassed Sam in computer skills all of a sudden which he learned from Frank.

    I think Dean has more than depression and his drinking may be his hand squeeze. I do not know if he is hearing michael- a strong possibility if they want to mirror Sam’s situation. I believe he said yes for a few seconds and thereby was able to kill Zachariah. A connection may have been established and he could have a Michael voice in his head.

    He could be seeing someone as he did with the lady dr- he was fine with it until he realized she was imaginary. At the least he couldbe seeing and hearing things regularly and is relieved to think its bobby.

    I also think its possible he could be slowly becoming a Phoenix. This would mirror sam being changed by demon blood and could prove key to defeating the leviathans. Seasons 6-7 have been experiments in genre for better or worse maybe more than being plot driven. Exploring a dark superhero in 8 might be cool. I read somewhere that tpb consider this season b-movie/grindhouse. If Dean went medieval on the leviathans… it could be epic and glorious and gory. I just wish they would exploit Rodriguez’s visual vernacular….

    I know we all want to see Dean at the center in all his badass glory. Despite earlier disappointments I still hope we will see this. I think paula has nailed it regarding the ‘eye of the storm’ quiet regarding his arc – yet we are seeing a lot.

    Also if 1-5 was ek’s vision and Sam’s “heroic” (not) arc… 6 onwards may be deans. Lisa/Ben seems to be their attempt at creating dean’s Jessica, from whom he was dragged away back to the family business…. as awkward as 6 was…. Dean and dean’s relationship with cas were front and center by the latter half. The Sam stuff kept and keeps him from the main story UNLESS the plan is to open the cage.

    What dampens my hope : the hinted miraculous cure for sam in time for the finale, and the fact that no other site has discussed the ramifications of Phoenix ash blood or the Phoenix ash myth…. so maybe these connections are not obvious to the writers either.

    I also want to thank paula for her tropes post. Clearly someone is deliberately writing Dean as a dark hero and Sam as hero in name only since he has not made the internal journey that Dean made after his hell trip (he was a better man) they go so far as to have Sam say he feels no guilt?!! Of course Dean feels too much.

  15. castiel'scat

    One interesting thing the wfb speculative pieces highlighted was the fact that Dean’s serious left fracture healed too quickly. If so is this a sign of the Phoenix ash affecting him or the tender ministrations of an unseen supernatural entity ..

  16. Paula R. Stiles

    @gija
    I haven’t seen anything to the effect that either Padalecki or Ackles is in favour of a reset. Personally, I think it would be an absolutely horrible idea. It’s basically the writers admitting that they suck at their jobs and must start all over again, and would make buying the season six and seven DVDs pointless except for completists.

    Plus, it takes away all trust for the fans because then we’d have no idea what to rely on or invest in, when even two entire seasons’ worth of canon could be made irrelevant in the blink of an eye. Smallville did this all the time in its flabby seasons between five and eight, and it really did a number on the show’s continuity. The less said about Angel’s reset the better.

    Another problem with it is – what point would you reset it to? Even if Jim Beaver didn’t want to leave, the reality is that he’s gone now. He’s up to the gills in other projects. Of course he’s not going to come to an SPN con and *say* that, but it’s easy to see that there is no way they could reset back to “Swan Song” and still have Bobby. And it’s entirely possible they couldn’t afford to have Misha Collins in as a regular recurring actor in season eight.

    Plus, a lot of fans really hated “Swan Song”. Sure, some liked it, but when the show’s creator (and nominal author of that episode) complains at Comic-Con that people were calling the season five finale “shit”, I’d say the showrunners are under the impression that a lot of fans hated it. Not a great place to reset back to – right *after* the episode so many fans loathed.

    And if you think the confusion over what year it is is bad now, try watching the writers dither over what to do about the fact that the brothers are now back in 2010.

    I am not at all surprised that some Sam fans would advocate a reset. It gets rid of Sambot and Sam’s lame hellpain, neither of which has been especially popular. But it also gets rid of a ton of Dean storyline. Let’s say, for example, we only reset this whole season. We then lose a season that is largely Deancentric and is generally viewed as better than season six. A reset could lose us most of the relationship with Death, all of “Frontierland” and “Time After Time”, the Phoenix stuff, the owning Mother stuff, Dean as a vampire…would a Dean fan really want to lose all of that? And where would it leave the friendship between Dean and Castiel? Wouldn’t a reset involve having to solve all the problems we’ve already seen solved, all over again? Just because a season or two is reset doesn’t mean the fans have forgotten what happened.

    Plus, it brings up the idea (again) that this has all been inside Sam’s head. Again, like resetting to “Swan Song”, why would that be a good idea?

    I really, really, really, REALLY hope they don’t do a reset, because I think that could very well kill the show and also completely kill the fandom’s interest in the show.

    I did read something about Ackles saying Dean was messed up (He’s been saying that on and off for a while) and I did read about the handprint. Jim Michaels claimed Dean was healed of it at the end of “Swan Song”. Personally, I think Ackles is right and they just forgot, but if they want to handwave it as a “Swan Song” healing, whatever.

    @castiel’scat
    There is that, yes. If it’s Sam’s dream, why is he so passive in it?

    It’s possible that Dean found Frank’s body, or that Frank was actually a Leviathan, or he hallucinated Frank was there, then found evidence to lead him to the trailer, where he was able to bone up on computer skills. It’s also possible that Frank was killed and replaced while Dean was unconscious for 36 hours, or later on, between phone calls. This kind of scenario is classic Nightmare Fuel that the likes of Rod Serling would totally have exploited, so I’m a bit surprised and disappointed that the show hasn’t done more with this.

    As for imaginary friends, Dean has always been unstable. The plot anvils about his having gotten exponentially worse have been a veritable rainstorm of galvanised steel this season. It’s more a question of what is wrong with him than whether something is wrong with him.

    I laughed at your comment about “b-movie/grindhouse”. Lord knows the writing has been that level of chaotic and messy. However, if they really think they’re imitating Grindhouse with any faithfulness this season, they are as misinformed as they were about their “noir” season six.

    It’s entirely possible Dean is turning into a Phoenix (as opposed to being a human-Phoenix hybrid, already). I dunno about that, though, as I can’t see the writers going there. In the long run, it might also create issues, in that the Phoenix was a monster who could be killed by the Colt and, presumably, went to Purgatory when he died. At least, that was how it was left at the end of “Frontierland”.

    As far as the lack of speculation elsewhere–fan speculation, or lack thereof, neither confers nor takes away from the likelihood that something will appear on screen. It is very common for fans to get into fanon ruts where they assume this or that thing will happen because enough fans echo each other in the same forum long enough that they start to believe what they’re speculating is true. No, I am not exempting this site or the Phoenix spec from that statement. I’m just saying that the show is going to do what the show is going to do, and the best we can do is try to guess what will happen next.

    As for the fracture…mmm, I’m afraid that would also have to cover Sam’s miraculous recovery from a near-fatal head injury with little more than a good sleep and a bad headache for a week or so. Considering the poor medical knowledge shown on SPN in the past, I’m guessing we were just supposed to handwave all of that as normal in the Winchester world…despite what happened to Jeffrey in “Repo Man”.

  17. gija

    “I haven’t seen anything to the effect that either Padalecki or Ackles is in favour of a reset”

    Unfortunately, Jensen did say that both he and Jared really like the idea and want to run it by the producers- I was at Jensen’s meet and greet when he said it. (And actually, everything in my post that’s con related is what I myself heard.)

    At first, the reset didn’t bother me because I absolutely hated most of last season’s storylines and I wouldn’t mind pretending they never happened. But on further reflection, I agree with you wholeheartedly that it would be a terrible creative decision and I really hope they don’t go there.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @gija
      Okay, thanks.

      Of course, the good news is that, if they haven’t run it past the producers yet, it’s not likely to happen this season. The episodes have almost all (possibly all) been written for this season and both Ackles and Padalecki probably already have a very idea what will happen at the end, even if they haven’t read all of the scripts yet. That last part is speculative, but Jim Michaels did say recently that he’d read up through 7.22 and they’re currently filming 7.20.

  18. gija

    I’m pretty sure he meant for next season- it sounded as if this season’s pretty much a done deal. And Jensen did say that it was just something he and JP were bouncing around, that’s all. Hopefully, the writers can find a way to bring back Misha and JB (which seemed to be Jensen’s main concern) without the reset.

  19. Arafel

    They could do a re-set and keep everything that’s already happened intact, if instead of sending them “back” in time, they would send them to an alternate/different, time-line, as they did in My Heart Will Go On, and even in The End(IMO).

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @gija
      Considering what we’ve heard about Collins’ return, I’d say the writers could bring him back pretty easily without any reset. Bobby is more difficult. He could be resurrected, especially if they go with the ghost-hanging-around idea, but it doesn’t address Jim Beaver’s availability. Is he even going to want to come back after “Death’s Door”? Also, they really overdid it with deconstructing Bobby this past season and a half. At this point, I don’t need to see him again, ever. Unless they wanted to give him some extra post-death wisdom the way they did Jo, I think bringing him back would also force the brothers to take a step back and return us to the same old issues of their running to him every time they have a case, even though they are experienced hunters, themselves. Resetting to “Swan Song” wouldn’t change that.

      @Arafel
      With every show I’ve ever seen do that (“Fringe” or “Charlie Jade”, for example), it’s a disaster. It loses casual viewers, and even loyal viewers, in droves because they either can’t figure out what’s going on now or they hate it. It also goes back to the problems of lack of investment in the new storyline and lack of trust in the writers.

      This level of retcon/reset works best if it is used to knit together and explain previously-confusing events within the story (like the Trickster turning out to be Gabriel), or if it happens immediately after the event it’s resetting (Castiel being resurrected and bringing back Bobby). A reset of more than part of an episode screws with the audience a bit too much (Think of how frustrating it was when shows like “Star Trek” reset even the events of just one episode).

  20. Arafel

    I don’t like the idea of a reset either; and mainly because of, yes, as you pointed out, the loss of all of the good stuff, besides the bad.

    It’s just that I’d love to find a way to completely eradicate Swan Song and the Sam’s Most Horrible Hell EVER! storyline.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Sadly, I doubt they would ever go so far as to reset “Swan Song”, not least because it’s getting back into Kripke’s tenure. And if “Swan Song” stays, so, too, must the hellpain storyline.

      Rewatching “Swan Song”, I’m once again struck by how in denial Dean is and how we see him breaking inside at the end…but we still haven’t seen exactly what it did to him. This is a loss Dean said he could not get beyond, yet the brothers have stumbled onward from Bobby’s death. I hope they don’t gloss over it, as this is the kind of trauma that they *can* show and ought to through to its logical conclusion.

  21. castiel'scat

    The grindhouse theme might explain the weird lady fetish- krissy, hookers and Amazons- as well as the misogyny . Also perhaps the scatterbrained feel. I never got the noir for 6 and am having trouble seeing grindhouse now.
    Have started angel and they nail noir even though it is light hearted compared to supernatural.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Nah, that’s Adam Glass’ virgin/whore obsession and it was in last season, too. I wish he would stop.

      I’m kind of surprised we’re now hearing about grindhouse, seeing as how they were insisting earlier on that it was Butch and Sundance, which sure ain’t grindhouse. I almost wish they would go the grindhouse route, because it could be fun in the way the Universal homage in “Monster Movie” was. But what they’re doing…is not grindhouse. If there’s any 70s vibe I’m getting off this season, it’s more political thriller, like “Three Days of the Condor”.

      What I don’t get is why they don’t continue the Universal theme and try out Hammer horror gothic stuff. Oh, the fun they could have. It would be original and perk up the show. Maybe that’s where they’re going in 7.16 with the cursed shoes.

  22. castiel'scat

    I read it on the wiki blog I think. Its not new news. The quotes are about b movies and the writer brings in grindhouse, probably because of tarentino…. so b movie whatever that means is more accurate. Neither jaws or pulp fiction are b movies so I am still confused.

    They were doing a great Gothic noir vibe way back … yes monster movie was a delight. Maybe season 8 could go grindhouse. Hammer horror ruled my childhood. I love Christopher Lee. Pretty racy stuff.

    Regarding this season, they set up this sense of urgency with the Leviathan machine hunting them and castiel seemingly gone. Then nothing. At the least they should be holed up reading every book they own for a clue. Why haven’t they summoned the ghost of the nice lady monster, Bobby’s friend, for some guidance. If monsters have souls there has to be something to summon.

    I love Friday 13 TV series and Bobby reminded me of jack marshak at first. The store and shoes sounds like a reference to that. I have no idea how Dean will be affected. I do not think Dean would cold call hunters like Sam did in faith. I think he would go supernatural with it. I am glad cas will be back. I hope there is a lot of blood.

    OK Dean 100% Phoenix equals monster. Dean changed by Phoenix ash could be interesting. I seem to recall cas was agog that he had drunken the ash.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      Eh, Wiki’s not especially reliable. All of the interviews I’ve seen indicate that they’re going for a “last of the cowboys” thing. They keep bringing up Butch and Sundance. It feels more like “Lonely Are the Brave” to me, but it’s not as though they are faithful to half the stuff they talk about, anyway.

      There are various directions they could go if they chose, instead of doing the same old thing over and over again. As for the urgency, the only ongoing plot we’ve had every episode to get invested in is Dean going nuts and hey, I liked “My Blood Valentine”, so….

      I can’t see Dean calling other hunters, either. Dean’s connections to supernatural creatures are far stronger. I bet the “hunter” he gets to find him a healer is Meg. That would explain the desperation.

      It’s possible that Dean could be a hybrid with the Phoenix. If anybody *but* he had drunk those ashes, you can bet there would have been more effects than blood that’s poisonous to the Mother of All Monsters and a musty aftertaste.

  23. castiel'scat

    I think it’s weird to say we’re doing b movie when its a horror show which already by definition has its roots in b movies. If the plot was moving and the homages were fun I would be thrilled. Killer clowns and Amazon ladies are b movie fodder…. so perhaps they are hitting their mark. Maybe some bikers and chain saws would make me happier. We just watched Tucker and Dale vs evil, which plays a lot with b movie horror themes. Loved it but think they missed an opportunity to impale Alan tudyk.
    I don’t buy the butch Sundance thing either but its been decades since I saw it.
    I do think there are good EPisodes this season. They had me at Leviathan … then we lost them

  24. Lani

    I’ve been following the speculation and thoughts for the past few days and thought I’d add my two cents.

    In regards to Jensen saying he and Jared were discussing a reset, I think that mainly has to do with them wanting to have a bit of a lighter work load, especially Jensen. Supernatural is the only show I know of that only has two main characters and everyone else comes and goes in a snap. If they’re lucky they’re around for a few years at least, but they are hardly in every episode with the Winchesters. The weight of the whole story rests with the two brothers and there has been extremely little exploration into other major characters stories, the obvious exceptions being Bobby and Castiel to some extent. Poor guys are stretched thin. Jensen more so, imo, because of just how much he invests in the character. And playing a depressed, angry, mad man like Dean Winchester for months on end…that has got to take a toll.

    That said, I agree with Paula and others that I really don’t want a reset or for this all to be in Sam’s head!

    @Paula your theory about Dean imagining Frank is brilliant! Creepy and scary because having Dean that far gone into madness can only mean lots of trouble ahead. And I’d love to see it! Sadly, I am not confident in these writers at all to pull something like that off. In this case, I’ll believe it when I see it.

    The 7.18 synopsis is also, imo, horrendous and sounds awful. At least the new one with the dancing shoes and a girl dancing to death actually sounds scary and interesting. The only good part about 7.18? Dean should be able to see the critter just fine like you say, Paula. But if Garth has to save his tail I’m gonna be pissed. Krissy saving Dean was bad enough, especially when he didn’t need help or saving, but Garth is almost worse.

    @Afrael: “I’m a little hopeful of getting a kind of DemonHunterDeanExtraordinaire a la early S2 out of this somehow, but we’ll see. Thanks again for supplying the spoilers.”

    I second this completely!

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Lani
      I haven’t any objection to Ackles’ suggestion (which he and Padalecki have been begging for since their season one commentary on “Phantom Traveler”) that the show open up its world more to more recurring cast. There are good and bad ways to do this, the Roadhouse in season two being a wrong way and the angels in season four being a good way. But it is a fine suggestion, overall, and I’m sure they can get beyond the main objection to it, which is that their cast budget is limited. If they can afford guest cast for the victims of the week, they can surely afford to bring back characters for a few episodes each season.

      As far as bringing back dead characters wholesale, I can think of one pretty easy way to do it–have the human souls take over Heaven. Heaven is mighty far away, so they couldn’t be dei ex machina, but you could use emissaries and the occasional ghost visitation snuck under the radar (perhaps via the brothers persuading or torturing a god like Osiris for the purpose). It’s just difficult enough to work and is no funkier than demon characters coming back from Hell. And certain characters who are dead (like YED, Gabriel, Mother) or MIA (John and Mary) could remain dead and MIA to remind us that you *can* be taken permanently out of the Great Game.

      Another possibility is to (re)introduce an old/new cast of characters that we’ve seen before, but who haven’t been in the story for a while. So, for example, the pagan gods can be trying to take over the earth in the wake of the power vacuum left by the angels (You could even have the souls in Heaven fighting the pagan gods on earth) or the fairies could be making inroads. These would bring back characters who are not dead, like Kali or the Leprechaun. And the added fun of fairies would be that only Dean can see them.

      As far as Dean being messed up, I’d like to see him crash and then move on there–but not back round in a big circle to “human Dean”. Because that’s always been crappy. Instead, they could continue with Dean being able to see things that aren’t there, but also things that are there and no one else can see. We’ve already seen him do this with the hell hounds, the fairies and the demon faces. It’s a very natural next step for him and it keeps him in character as a liminal personality without forcing Ackles to drag around a thunderhead with him every episode. Of course, we’re not even sure if Dean is that kind of ‘crazy’, anyway, right now, and Frank very likely is real.

      As for Sam, hey, show, why don’t we try some *normality* for him? Maybe the dude could take some online correspondence courses, or even try to teach something. Maybe he tries to clear the brothers’ names. Maybe he (Yes, I know I’ve said this before) tries to take Bobby’s place. Wow, that’s like, three whole stories that wouldn’t involve yet more of Victim Sammy. And it’s about time the brothers moved up the hunter food chain to becoming the grizzled old goats.

      There are also surviving hunter figures. Yes, most of them are new, but that was true of season two, as well. I’d love to see Lee back (just as long as anybody but Adam Glass writes Krissy). Frank could come back, either real or as an hallucination. I’d rather not see Fauxifer again. They did a Grandpa Shady on him. I suppose there’s Garth, depending on what they choose to do with him. They could bring back Roy and Walt long enough for Dean to whack them (seeing as how he’s up for killing bad humans these days). They could explore John’s side of the family. Things like that.

  25. castiel'scat

    Paula, you were referring to my bloody Valentine the movie? Jensen was great in that.

    I hated the treatment of the pagan Pantheon in hammer…. especially the Hindu gods which are still worshipped and are given offerings of ghee and sweets not human sacrifice. Although the thugee cult devotees of Kali are rumored to kill by strangulation.

    There are many rich cultures to mine. I think they never really thought about what happens after the apocalypse as far as hunting goes. There should have been angry demons galore still and devastated angels (we saw how crazy angels can be). I could imagine other zombie towns and nasty Satan loving witches galore. There should have been clean-up to do.

    As far as Dean goes shacking up is the least logical thing he would do. He’d either be stone hard hunter or nuts with grief. Sam… they never thought about what having a soul means or what its absence would mean for a reanimated human. Sounds like a breathing zombie to me. And if a hell damaged soul is returned I think Sam should probably be a living demon not simply hallucinating.

    What bothers me… if they want to give texture and nuance through genre styles it would be fabulous. It feels though that they have little idea what to do and are latching onto genres to make decisions. Killing Bobby for a plot driven purpose is fine. Killing him because you have this butch/Sundance concept is weak. They need to have clear ideas of the boys journey and their landscape for the show to be compelling the way it used to be. It is still very enjoyable. However it used to transcend genre ( and was a critical darling). I still like it and the writing is usually clever and ja rocks. Of course I will always watch genre.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @castiel’scat
      Yep, I’m talking about MBV3D. I think Ackles’ faces when he plays all-out “crazy” continue to be a work in progress, as sometimes, he seems a bit goofy. On the other hand, it’s all part of a seemless performance and I’m reminded that I’ve seen some very out-there and dangerous people (when I was working on EMS) who did look plain goofy in hypermanic mode. Mental illness is not a pretty thing to see up close. And on the third hand I’ve had ever since that nuclear tractor accident, I can say that there are some expressions Ackles has, both as Dean and as Tom (or Alec/Ben, or Jake) that sure would make *me* take a step back were I to encounter them on a man his size in real life. That “Oh, I’m right here” line in MBV, for example, is delivered with a subtext of: “After I’m done, they’ll find pieces of you washed up on beaches all over the world for years, one bone at a time.”

      Oh, don’t get me started (again) on the show’s treatment of pagan gods. I had me a good old ranty about it in some of the reviews. The last time they did pagan gods well was in “A Very Supernatural Christmas”. But that said, pagan gods as ubervillains could work if done right.

      As much as I liked Lisa, I didn’t buy into the idea that Dean would willingly go live with her and Ben, let alone while Sam was in Hell. I still think that was Sam forcing Dean to swear to do it and Dean living what he knew was Sam’s fantasy life. And the whole Sambot thing made no sense. If your body drops dead when your soul leaves it, what the hell was animating Sambot? Did Sam’s soul get divided, or something? I also agree that, really, Sam shouldn’t have come back from Hell insane. He should have come back a demon.

      I agree that they could do better with the genre. About the only genre I’ve recognised much of this past season and a half has been romantic dark fantasy of the “The Vampire Diaries” variety.

  26. castiel'scat

    I haven’t started back through season 6 recaps, spoilers ane comments. I thought the scandavian orchard diety was fine also. The Greeks and Romans personified their dieties, however they remained larger than life, not crazy or pathetic. If tptb utilise gods that are worshipped they really need to keep them different and distinct from judeo-christian traditions. That said, they really aren’t less powerful or impotent as far as the fate if the world goes. A lot of people across the globe believe in Hinduism or Buddhism for instance. Kali could have been more of a player. It would have been interesting out of the vessel thinking to have other dieties step in and put luci and mica in line. One thing I loved about dead like me was that all beliefs were respected equally.

    I have grown to like tvd. Episodes are usually action packed and the plot shoots forward every week. That pair of brothers is proactive in tackling the issue at hand. This season of supernatural is driving me crazy because of the lack of momentum regarding a bigbigbad that has been established as the most serious threat to the planet . And this bigbigbad is hunting the brothers with the full memories of two of their closest confidants. Surely they know about rufus’ cabin and enough about their mo to find them. The phone calls are not keeping the momentum. Season 1 worked as heavy mow because finding daddy was not a world saving task.

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