TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/29/12

This entry is part 9 of 26 in the series Spoilers 2012: Part 1

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This week, we have spoilers for Once Upon a Time, Doctor Who and Supernatural:

Once Upon a Time (Sunday nights, 8pm, ABC)
By Heather S. Vina

Happy Leap Year, Everyone!

ABC released the official synopsis for the episode, “Heart of Darkness”, due to air on March 18:

“EMMA ARRESTS MARY MARGARET FOR THE SUSPECTED MURDER OF DAVID’S WIFE, AND PRINCE CHARMING MUST STOP SNOW WHITE FROM ATTEMPTING TO ASSASSINATE THE EVIL QUEEN, ON ABC’S ONCE UPON A TIME:

“‘Heart of Darkness’ – Mary Margaret hires Mr. Gold as her attorney when Emma is forced to arrest her for the suspected murder of David’s wife, Kathryn. Meanwhile, back in the fairytale land that was, Prince Charming sets out to stop a determined and unhinged Snow White, whose memory is still clouded by Rumpelstiltskin’s potion, from assassinating the Evil Queen, on Once Upon a Time, SUNDAY, MARCH 18 (8:00-9:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

Once Upon a Time stars Ginnifer Goodwin as Snow White/Mary Margaret, Jennifer Morrison as Emma Swan, Robert Carlyle as Rumpelstiltskin/Mr. Gold, Lana Parrilla as Evil Queen/Regina, Josh Dallas as Prince Charming/David, Eion Bailey as August, Jared Gilmore as Henry Mills, and Raphael Sbarge as Jiminy Cricket/Archie Hopper.

“Guest starring are Eion Bailey as August, Lee Arenberg as Leroy/Grumpy, Meghan Ory as Ruby/Red Riding Hood, Jim Shield as Royal Guard, Edward Foy as Black Knight, David-Paul Grove as Doc, Gabe Khouth as Mr. Clark/Sneezy, Faustino Di Bauda as Walter/Sleepy, Jeffrey Kaiser as Dopey, Michael Coleman as Happy and Mig Macario as Bashful.

“‘Heart of Darkness’ was written by Andrew Chambliss & Ian Goldberg and directed by Dean White.”

SpoilerTV also has the promotional pictures up for this episode. The stuff with Snow White and Prince Charming looks good!

TV Addict has a bit up about the Red Riding Hood episode, “Red Handed”:

“Anything exciting coming up on my favourite new show of the season ONCE UPON A TIME? – Ashley

The TV Addict: Tons! That said, your level of excitement with regards to one of ONCE‘s upcoming fables will truly be determined by your answer to the following question: Who’s afraid of the big bad wolf? If you answered “Yes” to said aforementioned question you may want to watch the upcoming March 11th episode with the lights on. Well, that or risk being petrified by the original big baddie who will be making a killer first (and possible second and third) impression on poor Red Riding Hood and her unsuspecting town of fairytale denizens.”

SpoilerTV has the promotional photos up for the episode, as well. Looks like Snow is featured pretty heavily in this fairytale flashback!

E! has a tidbit up about the potential of Sheriff Graham/Huntsman returning:

VeroPadilla34: OUAT! Just need some type of fix!
“How about a ridiculously good-looking, charming and Irish fix?! The ABC hit series is currently trying to figure out a way to have fan favorite Sheriff Graham/Huntsman (Jamie Dornan) return. ‘To be quite honest, I hope so,’ executive producer Edward Kitsis says of Dornan appearing in a future episode. ‘We would like to have him back. Sometimes it is a scheduling thing that is beyond our control, but right now we are trying to move heaven and earth to hopefully make it happen. I can’t promise you.’ Eh, we’re still going to hold you to that non-promise, Kitsis!”

They also have an interview up with Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz about the Mad Hatter character, David Anders’ Dr. Whale, David and Mary’s relationship, Rump’s son, and Kathryn’s disappearance.

I’m excited about the Mad Hatter character. I love the Alice stories. I wonder who could be the Big Bad Wolf? It doesn’t seem like there is any character who has been introduced so far, who could fit it. I am so over the David/Mary relationship right now, and the idea of dragging out the melodramatic Kathryn’s disappearance story until mid-end season does not thrill me. I am looking forward to getting more info on Rump and his son and I kind of hope that Henry’s dad just ends up being some normal guy who has nothing to do with the curse. Not everything has to be important, right?

Another tidbit is up about Mary being arrested for Kathryn’s disappearance and Gold ending up representing her. That’s about the only part of this story that I’m interested in – the Gold part!

@girlgoneveggie: Any scoop on Once Upon a Time? Not having a new episode to look forward to this Sunday makes me sad. :(
“You think you’re a little down? Well, prepare for major fallout after Kathryn’s (Anastasia Griffith) disappearance, like our dear Mary Margaret (Ginnifer Goodwin) being arrested by her own daughter Emma (Jennifer Morrison) kind of major. And wait, it gets even better! Guess who’s going to be representing Mary Margaret in court? Mr. Gold (Robert Carlyle)! This should end well….”

And the last one is about August, which is also in the TVLine interview below.

TVLine’s Ausiello had some intriguing stuff about Rump on his site:

Question: I have fallen in love with Once Upon a Time. Anything on Rumpelstiltskin (Mr. Gold)? – Becca
Ausiello: And how. Although series co-creators Eddie Kitsis and Adam Horowitz won’t quite come out and say he isn’t as bad a guy as we think, the former does allow that ‘he’s a complicated man, [and how you view him] depends where you line up with his interests. [It's always a question of] whether you’re in the way of that agenda or not.’ Adds Horowitz: ‘There’s more to come this season’ – in particular, in Episode 19 – ‘about him and his son and what happened there that may, hopefully, shed a little more light.’ And yes, there is some light in him. ‘A lot of these characters have grey areas,’ Kitsis reminds. ‘There’s some humanity in him.’”

Now colour me interested on that! I am looking forward to finding out more about Rump. I find him to be the most fascinating character on this show right now.

TVLine’s Vlada Gelman also had an interview with Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz, where they tackled six questions, from Belle’s return, Dr. Whale, and the Sheriff returning to who August is, who Henry’s father is, will David and Mary Margaret ever get together, and why the Queen hates Snow White.

The most intriguing tidbits for me are on August. It turns out that August is not the writer of the book, as previously thought:

“WHO IS THE STRANGER? AND WHAT HE’S DOING WITH THE BOOK? Not surprisingly, the answers to these two questions are deeply interconnected. When the consequences of August’s tampering with the book (and him getting it back to Henry) are revealed in a later episode, ‘it will inform who [he] is,’ teases Kitsis. ‘Those pages are his story, you’d say.’ Adds Horowitz: ‘What we saw August doing in that episode…is the first step in peeling back the onion on who this guy is and what his agenda in Storybrooke is. August’s goal is a very specific goal.’ But if you think the handsome mystery man is the author of said book, you might want to guess again. ‘Who wrote it…will probably be something more for Season 2,’ reveals Kitsis.”

And they confirmed that we would not discover Dr. Whale’s fairytale counterpart this season.

All in all, a pretty full spoiler week! It sounds like Adam and Edward were doing the rounds this past week. I’m most intrigued by August and Rump’s storylines. Also interested in seeing Belle again (Poor Belle! They did mention hoping to bring Emilie de Ravin back at the end of the season), and the storyline with Prince Charming trying to save Snow White from her curse-infected revenge looks good, as well. But the whole David/Mary storyline is a real turn-off, as is the “What did Snow White do to the Evil Queen?” storyline. At this point, with as much evil as the Queen has done and how much joy she takes in destroying people’s happiness and their loves, nothing that was ever done to her is ever going to make me feel sorry for her. She’s just evil, through and through, and nothing justifies what she has happily done to everyone around her.

Doctor Who (Saturday nights, 9pm, BBC America)
By Heather S. Vina

The Doctor Who News site has some location pictures up of Matt Smith, Arthur Darvill and Mark Greenwood filming at Southerndown Beach. They are also reporting that actor Rudi Dharmalingham will be playing the role of “ISA worker”.

The Express, a UK newspaper, is reporting that an insider has told them that Benedict Cumberbatch is going to portray the Master in the 50th Anniversary special: “It’s fitting that the Doctor comes face to face with his ultimate enemy, The Master, for the 50th anniversary and it’s felt Benedict is the perfect choice if schedules can work. Fans will love the idea of the man who plays Sherlock Holmes taking on the Doctor.”

Steven Moffat does run both shows, so it’s possible he has gotten Benedict – who stars on his show, Sherlock – to make an appearance, replacing John Simms. I’m not a huge fan of the reboot’s version of the Master. I loved John Simms in Life On Mars, but he was way too campy and over-the-top as the Master, and the writing didn’t help. Suddenly, the Master could hop like Tigger, had magical powers, and was a hyper, scenery-chewing maniac. The Master has always been a menacing and intimidating foe for the Doctor, not a ridiculously campy one. Hopefully, both Benedict in the acting and Steven in the writing will bring the Master back to the formidable foe he was in the previous versions.

Supernatural (Friday nights, 9pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

Wow, and I thought last week’s spoiler front was quiet. Week two in Hellatus is even worse.

First up, the show gets another double repeat this week, with “Plucky Pennywhistle’s Magical Menagerie” (How I hate that episode title. So much) repeating tomorrow at 9pm in place of The Secret Circle repeat and “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters” in the usual time slot on Friday at 9pm, as well. It looks as though both The Vampire Diaries and The Secret Circle will be back the following Thursday with new episodes, so we probably can’t expect any more Thursday showings for Supernatural at the moment beyond this week.

Late edit: According to this week’s print issue of TV Guide, the CW will do another Supernatural repeat on March 8, after all. In place of a repeat of The Secret Circle, they will instead air a repeat of “Repo Man”. The repeat on Friday will be of “Death’s Door”. And yes, the network is currently reporting that the season eight finale will be on May 18. There will not be a two-hour movie (They probably want to stretch out that 23-episode season as much as possible, what with the current ratings situation). On the bright side, the network’s desire to stretch out the show for as long as possible this season is a good sign for a possible season eight.

The 7.16 synopsis is up (Yes, I know we talked about it last week, but that was in the comments):

“DOUBLE TROUBLE – After a ballerina is found dead from dancing herself to death, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) look into the case and discover the ballet slippers she wore were cursed. When Dean accidentally touches the shoes the power of the curse starts to take hold of him. John Showalter directed the episode written by Robert Singer & Jenny Klein.”

Why am I getting an Abba song stuck in my head?

Jim Michaels reported on the 25th that they were filming 7.18 and 7.19 last week. Tim Andrew (who directed “Season 7, Time for a Wedding!”) is directing one of them. Michaels said he has read the scripts for 7.21 and 7.22 (so they’re now done), but got cagey when asked about the season finale. It was reported that he called into a radio review by Winchester Bros. last week and confirmed that the devil’s trap means something, but that it won’t be revealed for a while. However, I didn’t hear it on there when I listened to it.

Jared Padalecki is saying he won’t be missing any episodes this season and said that he would only take three days off when his baby is born. The article seems a bit contradictory. If you look at the time off that’s been reported for both Padalecki and Ackles in the past during an eight-day shoot, the show has been trying to concentrate their shooting days so that they can get a little time off here and there in the past year or two. And they don’t film on weekends. So, I’m not really sure why three days off during the week is all that unusual. But okay.

We already knew the show had extended its schedule to April 18, but this listing also mentions one of the CW pilots filming until April 2. What does this mean? Well, if the early renewals are at all dependent on waiting for the pilots to come back, it could be mid-April or so before we hear about a season eight. If they put out some early renewals without waiting for the pilots, it could be sooner.

If you’re in the Duluth area and you’re a Supernatural fan who gets cable instead of satellite, it sucks to be you because they’re taking away your CW channel on cable.

Finally, ratings for last Thursday’s episode were 0.3/1 and 930 thousand in audience, while last Friday’s episode got a 0.4/1 and 1.13 million in audience. And, once again, the Live+7 ratings went up from a 0.8 to 1.2 for the February 10 episode.

We’ll be back next week with more spoilers. Stay tuned and check out our reviews of Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, The Event, Once Upon a Time, and Supernatural.

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IFPTV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/29/12

29 Comments on “TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/29/12”

  1. Arafel

    Thanks for the spoilery! Hopefully we’ll get more Supernatural goodies out of the con this weekend. *fingers crossed*

  2. Ginger

    Boy, spoilers are sparse. I forgot there is a con this weekend. Other news according to WFB: Apparently, the CW announced a one-hour finale date of May 18th (not a 2-hour one as previously thought). The season is passing quickly.

  3. Paula R. Stiles

    @Arafel
    Hopefully, yes.

    @Ginger
    I saw that on TV by the Numbers. It’s an official press release the CW put out.

    TV Guide is also reporting that the show will repeat in the place of The Secret Circle again next week.

  4. Ginger

    Isn’t that an added week to the hiatus? Even at that, there are still two more weeks that will have no SPN, since there are eight episodes left and ten weeks from March 16th to May 18th.

  5. crowley_gal

    Regarding ep 16. We know that most times the synopsis is misleading. TV.com says that Dean starts dancing himself to death, but I just can’t see it being a literal curse. I’m curious how the curse is going to effect Dean. We know that there was a casting call for two characters named George and Joyce. I wonder if they are leviathans.

    Plus, I’m wondering how the store and the kid with the phonograph fit it. My guess that that the store sells cursed objects. The dancer was probably gets the cursed shoes. The kid may have been bullied or something and is obsessed with getting even. That would explain why we see him with a knife.

    I’ve tried to pause to get a better look who is kicking Dean but it goes by too fast, but the feet look big and the person looks to be dressed in scrubs, so I wonder if its Sam. He may have gotten drunk trying to drown out Fauxifer and gotten himself arrested. Since I believe that Dean’s explanation from Repo man is to explain what will happen to Sam.

  6. crowley_gal

    Paula, I’m not sure if you saw this but here is the synopsis of episode 17

    MISHA COLLINS RETURNS! — Lucifer (guest star Mark Pellegrino) drives Sam (Jared Padalecki) to the breaking point and Sam ends up in a mental hospital. Desperate to save his brother, Dean (Jensen Ackles) calls every hunter he knows for help. One of the hunters gives him the name of a healer who turns out to have a very familiar face (guest star Misha Collins). Robert Singer directed the episode written by Sera Gamble (#717).

  7. Ginger

    @ crowley_gal: Sure sounds like insta-fix Cas. Hopefully, it won’t be as predictable as it sounds. None of the spoilers sound all that great; but, fortunately, the episodes lately have been better than they sounded.

  8. Paula R. Stiles

    @Ginger
    It’s the same added week that was announced at the beginning of this hiatus. Jim Michaels confirmed a week or two ago that we would have another two-week hiatus before the end.

    @crowley_gal
    Yeah, I’m skeptical of any synopsis that is not the official one. People who are not affiliated with the show often add in their own speculation as fact. Even the synopses themselves are not necessarily accurate.

    It’s possible that this is a Friday the 13th: The Series kind of storyline, with the store we saw in the set photos selling cursed antiques. I’m only surprised they didn’t go there years earlier.

    Of course, the Friday the 13th rationale for the cursed antiques was very different….

    I did see that synopsis. Meh. I do like the idea of Misha Collins returning. I just hope we don’t have much of Victim!Crazy Sam. I am stick-a-fork-in-me done with that storyline. The only thing that perks me up is that the latest set photos, once again, show Sam in excellent shape. So, I live in hope that Sam will finally be instafixed and the whole stupid scenario will go away.

    I’m already seeing nerd rage online about the possibility of Castiel being “redeemed”. O the horror. Remember the terrible thing he did to Sam? Yeah. And I also remember Sam choking his brother half to death, among many other ugly and reprehensible things that remain unredeemed (No, jumping into a lame CGI hole to stop a process you absolutely facilitated, repeatedly, with your own pride and stupidity, is not proper redemption). So, we might as well just move on and not expect much in the way of redemptive actions for Castiel, either.

    Not that it’s really been confirmed that Collins is actually playing Castiel….

  9. Ginger

    I hope Sam is insta-fixed and we’re done with this latest problem, too. I can take or leave Cas, but I don’t want him hanging around a whole lot this season or next season. He’ll always be an angel, and; apparently, an angel used to fix things that humans can’t fix. I’m as “stick-a-fork-in-me” done with angels as I am with Sam’s hellpain…in fact, all of Sam’s multi-year problems.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      At least we get a break from a recurring character if/when that character isn’t working. It’s more problematical when one of the leads has an annoying storyline.

  10. Ginger

    I’m with you on Sam’s annoying storyline, and that applies also to the angel story that should be over now, as well as Bobby’s fix-all stuff, too.

  11. Sunny

    With Gamble being the writer of 7.17 I feel like it’s gonna be crazy!limp!Sam-apalooza, especially if he’s “fine” afterwards. I also foresee more Fauxifer since Mark is in the episode as well. While the idea of more of Sam’s issues does annoy me and leave me feeling burnt out, if that’s what it takes to get rid of that storyline for good I will deal with it. (Though I’m skepetical on whether Gamble would ever really get rid of it. And even if she does I bet no one will be surprised if next season something else is suddenly wrong with Sam.) But I remember her or someone saying his head deal was permanent so I guess we’ll see.

    Whenever someone rages about what Castiel did I also think back to when Sam almost choked Dean to death. But since it wasn’t Sam in peril it’s like no one cares. Can you imagine what people would have said if Dean had been the one choking Sam to the point where he almost blacked out? I mean they went off when poor Dean killed Sam’s monster serial killer friend. And yet no one remembers the poor nurse Sam sucked dry to get his demon blood fix. They wanna make it sound like Dean would NEVER forgive Castiel for what he did to Sam but but I think that’s silly. Maybe earlier seasons Dean but not the Dean we have now.

    Personally I hope Cas/Misha sticks around for season 8 if there is one. If something magically happens to be wrong with Sam again (poor guy is a magnet for issues, really) I’m gonna need something to balance that out.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Ginger
      Well, if they do continue the angel storyline, I’d like to know how things have changed in Heaven. There really shouldn’t be very many angels left in Heaven, after the war between Castiel and Raphael. Maybe the human souls have even found a way to take over. Maybe that’s why Ellen was able to contact Dean.

      @Sunny
      I don’t think it’s a given that Sera Gamble is pro-Sam or anti-Dean. She has written Deancentric episodes in the past. I don’t think she’s the greatest episode writer ever (She has issues with her third acts and monologuing villains who bore rather than scare to death), but I don’t think she’s especially pro-Sam, either.

      As far as fans going off on Dean, don’t forget when he was “mean” to everyone in “Point of No Return” or when he beat down Sambot at the end of “You Can’t Handle the Truth”. I’ve even seen him get blamed for killing Sambot by having Death stick Sam’s soul back in his body.

      I don’t get excited about that stuff. Dean has always been a dark character who brings drama and controversy to the show. His intentions are pure and his actions self-sacrificing, but he’s done some mighty dark deeds. The difference between him and Sam is not so much what they’ve done as that Sam’s intentions and motivations are often selfish. That disrupts the balance between good intent and bad deed that keeps Dean sympathetic. There is also the fact that Sam has done some really ugly things to Dean, but again, the issue is largely one of intent. When Dean has struck Sam, he has either felt badly and expressed remorse afterward (“Bloodlust”) or has been reacting to something very serious Sam has done to him (Sam’s treachery in “Metamorphosis”). When Sam hurts Dean, it is usually in anger after having been found out in an act of betrayal (“When the Levee Breaks”) or is an act betrayal (Sambot standing by while Dean was vamped in “Live Free or Twihard”).

      Sam’s big problem is not that he does darker things than Dean, but that he’s been known to do them for his own gain, as part of an act of betrayal, or out of base motivations like jealousy (which throws his motivations in other cases into doubt). In TV Tropes terms, he repeatedly Kicks the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog). Not only does the show frequently not subvert the trope, it makes it worse by having the dog Sam kicks be his own brother.

      In stark contrast, the show never has Dean actually Kick the Dog (though his villainous alter egos, like the shapeshifters, LevDean and 2014Dean, go all out in that area). In fact, it actively subverts the trope, either by the aforementioned alter-ego stuff or by having the person Dean “kicks” be engaged in far worse. So, for example, Howard was engaged in a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown by Proxy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoHoldsBarredBeatdown) on Sam when Dean turned his own magic against him, and the show actually had Jeffrey Shoot the Dog (almost literally) to subvert both Dean giving him a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown and coming perilously close to Shooting the Dog himself when he coldbloodedly whacked Jeffrey, who was his former torture victim. Unsurprisingly, in light of this, Sam rather frequently circles the Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon), though some well-timed Heel Realisations (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelRealization?from=Main.HeelRealisation) have so far kept him out of that particular story black hole. Not that the writers constantly sticking him in Nice Job Breaking It, Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero) mode has done him any favours. Dean’s come fairly close, himself, but mostly as a proto-Knight Templar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar), saved largely by Samaritan Syndrome.

      Okay, so, that went on a while. My point is that the show likes taking Dean dark, so it subverts the more villainous aspects of his acts in some way, the better to take him a little darker and keep the audience’s sympathies. It has also made numerous references via Very Evil People (so it can’t just be flattery) to Sam’s insanity *and* Dean’s “sainthood”. In this very season, even. I’m guessing that’s not because the show currently hates Dean but because that’s his character arc in season seven. I can understand that people may worry that this particular plot-train may derail at the wrong moment as it heads for the inevitable season-ending cliffie, but it’s not currently headed in the wrong direction.

  12. madcap

    I’ve only been watching sporadically this season. One way to get me back full time would be to bring Castiel back and give Dean someone else to play off of besides Sam. Because, unfortunately, the writers will never let Dean stop being Sam’s nursemaid even as they and Sam continually grind him into the dust for it even as they continue to make Sam the most hapless, helpless, put-upon, victimized damsel in distress the cosmos has ever known. At least with Castiel around, Dean occasionally gets to be about something besides what a failure he is as at protecting Sam who screams about wearing his big boy pants while continually soiling his diapers.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @madcap
      I think my main issue with the synopsis is that basically the only new thing it says that we didn’t know, already, is what “Castiel” will be returning as.

      I find it kind of amusing that “Sam goes crazy” equals “Sam gets locked away in a mental hospital like Rapunzel in her high tower” and “Dean goes crazy” equals “That madman who pushes the red button when no one is looking and blows up the planet.” The last time Dean lost his marbles completely, he went down to a crossroads…and we all know how that turned out.

  13. Ginger

    @Paula: You bring up a good point. It will be interesting to see if Cas fixing Sam’s wall isn’t what gets him Dean’s redemption. It may be that Cas saving Dean from pushing the red button is where the redemption comes from.

  14. anotherjoy

    ““Dean goes crazy” equals “That madman who pushes the red button when no one is looking and blows up the planet.” The last time Dean lost his marbles completely, he went down to a crossroads…and we all know how that turned out.”

    I really like that description. And I actually really enjoyed “Point of No Return” for exactly that reason — he almost got away with blowing up the planet then too.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @Ginger
      On the one hand, that would require two things they haven’t done before–put Dean at the centre of the mytharc and then have someone who isn’t Sam talk him down.

      On the other hand, rewatching “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”, I think the show has already given us both Bobby and Sam trying their hand at the Yellow Crayon speech with Dean and not succeeding (probably because they both really sucked at it). Didn’t help that they turned Bobby into a particularly smug version of a Gary Stu in 7.09/7.10. Plus, Dean has made repeated references to losing his desire to fight when he lost Castiel. So, it’s possible, if Dean goes whacko and needs to be talked down, that Castiel will be the only one who can.

      @anotherjoy
      He did, yes. It’s a curious thing, that the brothers were blamed collectively for “letting” the Devil’s Gate open and Sam was blamed for breaking the last seal, yet Dean’s deal is ignored. Sam’s killing Lilith was something any hunter would have done. It was the way he killed her and what he did on the way that was reprehensible. Admittedly, those two things should have clued him in that killing Lilith wouldn’t be the unalloyed win he thought it would be, but the act itself wasn’t considered bad by anyone else. Just the results.

      Dean’s deal, on the other hand, is coded as an act of momentary(?) insanity by both Bobby and Sam’s reactions. And it is considered the blackest of magic, automatically damning by its very use. Later, we find out that Sam has told everyone about Dean’s deal to try to break Dean out of it. Still later, we find out that Dean’s deal was intended to start the Apocalypse. Since it wasn’t actually necessary for Lilith to be topside until it was necessary to break the final seal (and perhaps, she could even be killed in the Pit), you could see YED’s opening of the Devil’s Gate as a big feint to hide the true main event – Dean’s deal.

      So, it’s curious that no one brings that up the way they bring up Sam’s killing Lilith. In many ways, that trip to the crossroads is the central action of the series on which all else depends. Yet, it’s treated like a personal, local event when it’s very much one that affected the entire SPNverse.

  15. Arafel

    “On the other hand, rewatching “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”, I think the show has already given us both Bobby and Sam trying their hand at the Yellow Crayon speech with Dean and not succeeding (probably because they both really sucked at it). Didn’t help that they turned Bobby into a particularly smug version of a Gary Stu in 7.09/7.10. Plus, Dean has made repeated references to losing his desire to fight when he lost Castiel. So, it’s possible, if Dean goes whacko and needs to be talked down, that Castiel will be the only one who can.”

    First off, I re-watched last night’s episode, too-and also found Bobby Sue to be annoying as hell! LOL!
    Secondly, I really wish that I could believe this about Cas, but I can’t. I just don’t think the showrunner(s) would allow it. If Dean needs to talked down from anything, the only one they would allow to do it would be Sam, IMO-and in the clunkiest, Sam is the bestest-thing-ever way that they can find to write it-see PONR-and again my concern would be that when they try to make Sam look good, they invariably do it by trying to make Dean’s choices/actions(even long ago, previous ones that were in no way wrong-locking Sam in the panic room when he was detoxing?!-Please! *eye roll*) seem bad or “wrong”-even though, in my mind, the only “wrong” action Dean ever took was the Crossroads deal to bring Sam back. And *I* wouldn’t even call that one “bad” becasue his main motivations were fueled by the damage done to him from childhood, by his father-said father even becoming the example for his “good” son to “follow” in his misplaced at the time hero-worship of dear old dad. Sad, yes-but not what I would call “bad” in the “evil-like” context. And I couldn’t agree with you more about this, Paula…

    “In many ways, that trip to the crossroads is the central action of the series on which all else depends. Yet, it’s treated like a personal, local event when it’s very much one that affected the entire SPNverse.”

    Mary may have made the “first” deal, but Dean’s was the key and the fulcrum that both the higher-up angels and the demons were seemingly concentrating all their efforts on as the most necessary ingredient to their Apocalypse.

    I AM thinking(hoping!), however, that Cas will be the driving force behind Dean’s long overdue re-entering of the myth-arc. The SPNverse angels were supposedly made by God to be cold and ruthless warriors of Heaven, and to deny their emotions in order to be able fulfill their cosmic roles-Dean has been referred to as being “dead inside” on more than one occasion, series-long-DalDoM, MBV, and the most recent episode all coming to mind just off the top of my head. He also wished to feel “nothing” in Heaven and Hell after his “confession” to Sam of what he had become in hell. I can’t help but feel(hope, hope, HOPE!) that all of this is finally leading to something big for Dean this season. With so many dropped storylines having to do with this for them to choose from, it would almost be criminal, IMO, for them to not bring one of them back-The Rigtheous Man or The Servant of Heaven being the most obvious, again IMO. *fingers crossed* SO MUCH! for something like this for not only Dean and Jensen, but for US!-the fans-too, DARN IT!

  16. madcap

    “So, it’s curious that no one brings that up the way they bring up Sam’s killing Lilith. In many ways, that trip to the crossroads is the central action of the series on which all else depends. Yet, it’s treated like a personal, local event when it’s very much one that affected the entire SPNverse.”

    I think this is because the writers don’t perceive the mytharc to be about Dean in any way except in how his actions drive Sam’s choices. So in and of themselves, Dean’s choices are not given any weight by the writers except for in the moment that they happen.

    To me, this speaks to the fundamental flaw in the writers room in that they have the characters tell one story with their dialogue while showing us a completely different one on screen. This might even be a clever narrative device if I believed the writers had any awareness that this was happening, but they seem utterly clueless about the various layers of storytelling on their own show. It’s bizarre and it’s why this show has never achieved the greatness that it could have.

    1. madcap

      I meant to add that I often feel like Gamble and the writers (except Edlund on occasion) think they’re telling the story of Sam and his brother the directors, mostly through Jensen, want to tell the story of Dean and his brother. Or maybe that’s just Jensen’s remarkable screen presence and his ability to matter to a scene even when he has little to do beyond wring his hands. Either way, it seems to me that the directors tend to focus more on Dean regardless of what ridiculously over the top melodrama the writers have Sam going through.

      1. Paula R. Stiles

        @Arafel
        It’s true that in the chronology of the story that we have now, Mary made the first deal. But in the chronology of the story, Dean’s deal came two seasons earlier and I doubt the writers would have showed Mary making a deal without her son’s (Interesting that Dean and his mother were the ones who made such pivotal deals, whereas John’s was almost incidental and Sam wasn’t even given the dignity of a deal, just outright manipulated into breaking the last seal).

        The critical thing for Dean is that he is not given compelling reasons *not* to make the deal. Crossroad deals are presented to him as self-sealing in the evil they do. A deal-maker ultimately harms only him/herself. Dean is so downtrodden that trading his soul in exchange for his brother’s life seems only like a logical extension of his father’s mandate to “take care of Sammy.” Even when Bobby and Sam freak out over what Dean did, they don’t make the connection that a lifetime of being put down has convinced Dean that he’s worthless. It’s as if what matters to them is that Dean made his own decision rather than being somebody else’s servant, not that he traded away his soul to a demon.

        @madcap
        For me, it boils down to what the story is actually promising to me. The story keeps telling and showing me that There Is Something Wrong with Dean. It also keeps telling me and showing me that Castiel’s “Death” Hurt Dean. And it keeps telling and showing me that these two things are dovetailing into something ominous. Of course, they also kept telling me (but not showing) that Sam Is Damaged Forever, something on which I knew they would never entirely deliver–only one reason why I never got emotionally invested in it.

        Regardless of what character the show’s writers are obsessed with, they need to deliver on what they explicitly promise. They used to be pretty good at this. Then Kripke decided he didn’t need to complete the story he’d spent five seasons telling and promising, and instead gave us some maudlin crap involving the last-minute insertion of a runny yellow crayon–sorry, green soldier–instead of an apocalypse, averted or otherwise. But the actual demands of story haven’t changed. If the writers promise me something, every single episode of the season, I expect them to deliver on it. I’m willing to wait for the season to end to see if they do or not, but I do expect it.

        As for the “clever device”, the contradiction of Show and Tell is actually a pretty common writer’s error.

        I’ve seen people discussing elsewhere that Meg might have been changed in some way by her kiss from Castiel. While I think that’s possible, if the writers are going that route, I bet her change started even earlier–from the moment Castiel threw her down into holy fire in “Abandon All Hope”. There was already some indication that Meg wanted to go to Heaven. And she also mentioned that she was dreaming again for the first time since going to Hell (something only Dean was ever shown to do while actually *in* Hell). It’s possible that the holy fire has burned away some of Meg’s demonic evil, reviving some of the latent good suggested by her previous intense loyalty to YED and Lucifer and idealism, and the writers want to set her on redemption course. If that is the route intended for her, I hope they don’t rush it and then kill her off.

  17. Ginger

    What I’m more interested in than Meg is what the show intends for Crowley. He’s such a good character, and I would like why he has such ‘respect’ for Dean and such disdain for Sam explored. The writers have played that point up many times, with no indication as to why.

    Like you, I absolutely expect the writers to deliver on what they have been promising for many seasons, not just every episode this season, even if it is in the form of a cliffhanger that is carried over into next season. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am in no mood for any more Swan Song crap from this show (the reason I’ll never watch another EK project). That said, and despite the obvious problems SG has telling a story; and especially a horror/drama story, I think she is doing a bit better this season.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      The thing with Crowley is that he’s already appeared a few times and been sidelined by the plot. Plus, while we know for sure Meg will be in 7.17 (or, at least, her meatsuit), we haven’t heard a thing about Crowley. So, there’s nothing really to hang a hat on there with him.

      I agree that SG’s mytharc has been somewhat better this season than before (despite a pacing tendency to draw some storylines out forrreeeeeevvvveeeeerrrr). A lot does depend on how it ends, but we won’t know that until May 18.

  18. madcap

    “Regardless of what character the show’s writers are obsessed with, they need to deliver on what they explicitly promise. They used to be pretty good at this. Then Kripke decided he didn’t need to complete the story he’d spent five seasons telling and promising, and instead gave us some maudlin crap involving the last-minute insertion of a runny yellow crayon–sorry, green soldier–instead of an apocalypse, averted or otherwise.”

    I agree with this completely and it’s also why I have no faith that the show will deliver on the “promises” of Dean spiraling out of control or something equally big that will have ramifications beyond saving Sam.

    I actually don’t think this depression storyline was something that they planned as a season-long emotional arc because it was pretty obvious during SDCC last year that they had no long-term story in the works for Dean. I think once the “Dean Who?” uproar started, that’s when they decided to beef up that part of the story just to make it look like they had planned for Dean to do something other than wring his hands over Sam. That’s why I don’t think we’re going to get any kind of major pay-off. I could be wrong but I believe this story is nothing but a little bit of make-work on screen for the most popular actor.

    Problem is that Jensen tends to make whatever little he is given, more compelling than any of the flashy crap they spoonfeed for Sam, so it sets up much bigger expectations than the writers are planning to deliver. So whatever throw-away pay-off they have planned (and I suspect Dean will be all fixed once Cas has earned his redemption by fixing Sam) always seems too trivial to be what they must have been going for and his story continues to seem unfinished — much like Dean just showing up at the graveyard to get beaten on was so insultingly underwhelming compared to the build-up of Dean saying yes to Michael. That was the Chekov’s gun of the five-year mytharc and it never got fired which is why that arc fizzled like a damp squib.

    As for all the build-up for Dean this year, I hope there is something more to it than a couple of suck it up speeches and Cas fixing Sam’s wall. But I doubt that Gamble is willing to go any further than that because it would give Dean a role independent of Sam and there seems to be some kind of mandate on the show since mid-season 5 where that is verboten. I would love to be wrong about this, but the precedent has been set on this show.

  19. Ginger

    @ madcap: You have brought up another interesting thing that I have noticed this year, and I don’t even think the writers intended it. Has anyone else noticed that Dean seems to be ‘outgrowing’ Sam, or outgrowing the ‘all about Sam?’ An example of this is a point that Paula brought up, in that Sam’s yellow crayon speech, and Bobby’s, too, seems to have no affect on Dean at all. Usually, Dean listens to Bobby and we see the effect of whatever Bobby said in another episode. In the past, this was the same case as Sam (i.e., just be my big brother in Blood Lust).

    That leads me to believe that it will be Cas that stops Dean’s red button action…if there is a red button this season. Thoughts?

  20. Marisol

    Isn’t Dean also supposed to have a huge, game changing secret this season too? In one of the Fall interviews they were really pushing this and were careful to say that it was not the Amy thing. Has this secret already been revealed and I somehow missed it? Or is it still out there ready to throw a wrench in the fireworks at the end? As far as I can see, there is no sign of any secret, except maybe his invisible secret admirer and since he doen’t know who or what that is, it would not make it his secret, but simply a secret. Seems like this “secret”, if they are still going to use it, also points to Dean being front and center of the red button action.

  21. Ginger

    There was supposed to be a big second secret, but the show hasn’t given any indication of one. I’m assuming it was an idea that they gave up on.

    1. Paula R. Stiles

      @madcap
      The writers have made it pretty clear over the years that they have a rough outline, at best, of how they want the season to go. So, there’s no pre-planned storyline for them to cling to if something (like Dean’s secret) catches the audience’s interest. They don’t have to worry that Dean can’t be a hero or have a happy ending the way Lex Luthor couldn’t, because their story is not a prequel or already told in another format. And with Eric Kripke gone (He really only left with this season), there goes the main cheerleader for Sammy Stu. There’s no real evidence that Sera Gamble wants to continue with that.

      Remember that Castiel wasn’t originally supposed to last more than a few episodes, but he turned out to be so popular with the audience that the writers kept him.

      I also don’t think that you can say the depression storyline wasn’t planned. Dean’s drinking and depression have been referenced in every single episode this season. There have been worried conversations about his state of mind and he was sneaking out to do things like kill a “sympathetic” monster that Sam had spared. In the second half of the season, we’ve progressed to weird things happening around Dean that appear to give him hope, but also make him look insane. And now we’ve got Dean whacking humans. So, I’d say there’s been definite advancement there. It hasn’t been telegraphed like Sam’s hellpain, but it’s definitely progressed – and not anywhere non-ominous.

      If any character arc wasn’t especially planned out, I’d say it was Sam’s hellpain. I don’t think anybody thought that one through. That may sound odd, considering all of the spoilers about it, but if you look at them, you find the writers going on about how Sam’s hellpain will be permanent, blahblahblah at the beginning of the season and then, suddenly, around the time they were writing 7.17, Sam’s storyline hits a critical mass where they basically have to resolve it or write Sam out.

      @Ginger
      We don’t know yet if there will be a red button, or a yellow crayon, or what. We don’t know yet how Dean’s conflict with the Leviathans will turn out. People have commented on the lack of Dean spoilers this season, but there has been an equal lack of Leviathan spoilers. Remember when everyone thought “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters” would be an MOTW about the Jersey Devil?

      But yes, it does sound as though Dean wants to go over the edge and take the world with him. And neither Sam or nor Bobby did much of a job of convincing him otherwise. Dean did take Frank’s advice, though there’s no way that can help him in the long run (It’s basically just “Don’t talk to the voices ’cause they’re mean” advice from one homeless mentally ill guy to another). But the spoilers indicate Dean will be very happy to see Castiel again.

      If Dean does go cosmically nuts, I think the identity of whoever tries to talk him down would depend greatly on how much guts the show has and where they want to go with it. But that’s stringing together a whole lot of ‘ifs’.

      @Marisol
      There was supposed to be a secret about Dean that would change things. It was not clear whether it would change things between him and Sam, or in general. It was also not clear whether it was a secret Dean was keeping or one about him. I suspect that originally, this was something said off the cuff about Dean killing Amy. But whether that secret is now truly out is a very good question that remains unanswered. That’s because there are at least three candidates so far—the Amy killing, which is out and turned out not to be all that big; the mess inside Dean’s head that was referenced in his phone message to Bobby and Ellen’s message to him, that Sam and Bobby have guessed at, but Dean has never admitted; and the invisible whoever/whatever that is helping him. On top of this, there have been hints that Dean’s guilt over Castiel extends beyond just what we’ve seen.

      Overall, I think it’s still a legitimate question, regardless of what the writers originally intended, because Dean has been such an unreliable narrator this season that there are various major things percolating up there that he hasn’t been talking about and there could be many more things of which we, as yet, have no clue. It is possible we could learn quite a bit in 7.16 and it’s simply not being talked about in the spoilers.

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