Today we are talking to Daniel Heath Justice, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and author of the fantasy trilogy, The Way of Thorn & Thunder. In addition to writing fiction, he teaches Indigenous North American literatures and Aboriginal studies at the University of Toronto:

IFP: Can you tell us a bit about your The Way of Thorn and Thunder trilogy?

DHJ: The Way of Thorn and Thunder is a story about the defiant struggle of the Folk, a confederacy of Indigenous peoples whose lush green homeland, the Everland, is besieged by invaders hungry to strip it of its resources and purge it of its original inhabitants. Against this political backdrop is the coming-of-age story of Tarsa’deshae, a she-warrior of the Kyn nation, who has suddenly inherited the legacy and occasional burden of ancient powers for which she’s entirely unprepared, but which her people and the other Folk desperately require in the looming conflict.

IFP: How did your background influence the writing of The Way of Thorn and Thunder?

DHJ: Many aspects of my background influenced this story and its motivations. As a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, I wanted to tell the kind of epic fantasy that I’d love to read – namely, a tale rooted in the lands, languages, and socio-political contexts of this hemisphere, not those of northern Europe. As a pro-feminist man heavily influenced by strong women in my past and present, I also wanted to tell a story that takes seriously the power and strength of women of various perspectives, ages, and body types. And as a queer man, I wanted my story to be one that offered a range of emotional and erotic possibilities for characters, across lines of sexuality, gender, and race. Ultimately, I wanted my books to reflect the diversity, complexity, and nuance of the world I inhabit, and to take these qualities seriously.

IFP: What did you hope The Way of Thorn and Thunder would accomplish?

DHJ: First and most importantly, I wanted Thorn and Thunder to capture readers’ imaginations by being a good story. Whatever else it accomplishes – sensitizing readers to diverse cultures, worldviews, and histories, opening up space for a diverse readership to see diversity taken seriously, and so on – does so only through the strength of the storytelling and characters themselves.

IFP: The Way of Thorn and Thunder is set in a secondary world. Why did you make this choice? Have you thought of writing more fantasy novels set in a real-world setting?

DHJ: A secondary world offers room for drawing on real-world histories and experiences without appropriating or doing violence to the lived experiences of peoples in that real world. You’re not bound to the same historical events of the real world, but can find inspiration from those events and offer different possibilities and resolutions to similar experiences in a world of your own creation. In some ways, it’s harder to do the work in a secondary world, and it’s not a free-for-all where just anything can happen, but the possibilities of imagining otherwise are unlimited in such a world, and when your focus is some of the most profound issues of human experience, the more room for possibility, the better.

IFP: How did you become interested in fantastic literature?

DHJ: I’ve always loved fantasy lit, ever since I was a child. I was never much for the techno-fetishism of mainstream science fiction, but fantasy appealed to my love of elemental magic and the mysteries of the natural world.

IFP: In the past, fantasy has been the realm of European-inspired castles and societies. Do you think modern fantastic literature is moving in a different direction, or does it remain rooted in European folklore and tropes?

I think it depends on the form. Epic/quest/heroic fantasy is still very much embedded in Europe’s mythic past and influences, but other forms of fantasy (especially the new weird fiction of China Miéville and other experimental fantasists) offer radical and distinctive visions of alternative imaginings.

IFP: What advice would you give to a writer trying to tackle Aboriginal or Native characters for the first time?

DHJ: Avoid clichés and stereotypes, and know what you’re talking about. Native peoples and cultures are far more sophisticated, complex, and diverse than most people have been educated to know, and there’s far too much ridiculous beads-and-feathers bullshit out there. If you’re going to write about Aboriginal peoples, know your stuff. Read all you can about the particular culture you’re writing about, and don’t just look at the history – understand the present struggles, accomplishments, and experiences of the community and its members. There’s no such thing as “the Native culture” – there are many Native cultures, so be specific; know exactly what culture you’re talking about, and understand that, in any culture, there’s diversity and often contradiction and conflict. Don’t just read anthropology – read fiction, poetry, autobiography, history, sociology, etc. Remember that Native peoples, like all humans, change and adapt to the world around them, always have and always will – it’s only dead cultures that are pure and unchanging, and they’re only good for museum displays, if that. And familiarize yourself with what Native people themselves say about their world and their experiences – don’t just rely on outsiders to give you a sense of Native subjectivity.

IFP: What books or sources would you recommend when researching Aboriginal or Native myths and legends?

DHJ: Depends entirely on what Aboriginal or Native community you’re looking at. Again, this is all dependent on specificity. Keep in mind, too, that the very idea of “myths and legends” can be a colonial one that collapses cultural difference into a single, malleable, and ultimately empty “authenticity” – if you want to know about Indigenous spirituality and traditional knowledge, you’ll have to look beyond ideas of quaint folklore to actual worldviews and material experiences. (And keep in mind that many practices are not meant for outsiders, so show respect for the things you aren’t shown and for the right of people to keep something for themselves.) For example, Indigenous spiritual traditions are very much land-and-kinship focused – to separate the stories from these contexts is to do violence to them, as the entire cosmology is embedded within the relationships of people to the other-than-human world around them. I’d suggest starting with the land – what kind of land are you interested in writing about? When you know that, find out which Indigenous peoples have called that kind of land home, and begin researching their specific contexts, both historically and currently. General anthologies of Native myths and legends are generally so far disconnected from their meaningful linguistic, cultural, and ideological contexts that they tend to be useless, and reliance on these sources is likely to result in hackneyed, cliché-ridden characters.

IFP: Can you recommend some speculative fiction books that incorporate Aboriginal or Native material?

DHJ: Anything by William Sanders – he’s one of the best Native spec fic writers today, and someone with a profound understanding of history and context, as well as respect for the issues, peoples, and practices he’s writing about. Ursula K. LeGuin’s Earthsea series (and other works) offers similarly deep and insightful articulations of Indigenous ways of knowing, without appropriating or misrepresenting them. Her work is among the best out there, and she’s been a long-time advocate of Native rights.

IFP: What are some of your favourite books and authors?

DHJ: In fantasy, Tolkien and LeGuin, of course, along with Nathaniel Hawthorne, Octavia Butler, C.J. Cherryh (especially her Arafel sequence), Susanna Clarke, H.P. Lovecraft, John Crowley, Nalo Hopkinson, Philip Pullman, Peter S. Beagle, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, Wendy and Richard Pini, and Dennis McKiernan.

IFP: What do you do when you are not writing fiction?

DHJ: I’m a literature professor by trade, so I spend a lot of time teaching, editing, and writing in the field of Native literary studies.

IFP: What are you working on right now?

DHJ: A cultural history of badgers, a collection of Native lit crit essays, and a new novel.

You can learn more about Daniel Heath Justice by visiting his website at http://www.danielheathjustice.com/.

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