- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 01/04/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 01/11/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 01/18/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 01/25/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/01/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/08/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/15/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/22/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 02/29/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/07/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/14/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/21/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 03/28/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/04/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/11/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/18/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 04/25/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 05/02/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 05/09/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 05/16/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 05/23/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 05/30/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 06/06/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 06/13/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 06/20/12
- TV Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 06/27/12
Season two of Grimm starts filming today and is slated to premiere in August (The rumour is August 17). Our reviews will commence on August 23. Also, season two of Lost Girl on Syfy will move to Fridays at 10pm the week of July 20, when Eureka ends. At this point, we will move the Lost Girl reviews to Mondays and Supernatural reviews (if the CW hasn’t already moved the show to Wednesdays) to Fridays, in anticipation of the new season slot.
This week, we have spoilers for Supernatural:
Supernatural (Friday nights, 9pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles
It’s a slow news week for Supernatural, but we did get a new promotional poster, advertising the show’s new timeslot after Arrow. And, once again, many fans complained about that Oedipal snake.
There was also an Australia con with several guests (Misha Collins, Richard Speight Jr., Jim Beaver, Traci Dinwiddie, Corin Nemec) but no spoilerage. Also, Jensen Ackles trended Twitter for a while after he pulled out of the upcoming Paris con and asked his wife, Danneel Harris-Ackles, to post an apologetic letter on her Twitter explaining why. Jared Padalecki had already pulled out, citing familial commitments.
Late edit: This spoilery blurb from the latest issue of TV Guide probably will make a lot of fans unhappy, but keep in mind that it’s early days, yet.
TVMerch.com is now advertising three calendars. In addition to the main one, we’ve got a “brothers” theme and a “Supernatural cast” theme (Yes, that last one includes Castiel). They’re also advertising the 2012 main calendar free with only the cost of shipping and handling.
The Essential Supernatural: On the Road with Sam and Dean Winchester has had its publication date moved back to December 25, 2012. Another tie-in novel, Fresh Meat by Alice Henderson, has been listed with a publication date of November 13. And the season seven companion will be out on September 25.
Finally, ratings for the repeat of “Meet the Boss” were surprisingly good at 0.3/1 and 880 thousand in audience, though the finals did drop for the first time since last summer from a more robust 0.4/1 and one million-plus in the overnights. Still, it was number one in audience on the network this week and number two in the demo (The 9pm episode of America’s Next Top Model got a 0.4), even beating out original episodes of two shows. Also, the Live+7 ratings for “There Will Be Blood” rose from a 0.7 to 1.0.
So, with things so slow this week, let me get my wish list for next season out of the way:
- More procedural, less meta. That doesn’t necessarily mean MOTWs and it certainly doesn’t mean going back to season one (if last season’s attempts to regress to the womb were any indication), but it should mean a clear beginning, middle and end, and tight writing. Back off on the experiments that don’t work. And writers? Remember when you guys thought you were getting in touch with your Inner Smartass? I think you mistook that for your Inner Jackass. Please stop.
- STOP THE MISOGYNY. DITTO ON THE RACIAL STEREOTYPES (Kevin can still come back, though. Let’s prayer-circle that kid).
- Give the mytharc to your most popular character. Yes, I mean Dean Winchester. Sam has already had it for several years, so he’s hardly been neglected on that score. Anyway, what is the deal with not capitalising on Dean’s popularity? Get with the program, already.
- Give Sam a new character arc in which he has to react and grow to something external (preferably, someone else’s problem – Dean’s, even), not where something inside him once again means all he has to do is sit there passively and bemoan his accurséd fate. Screw that. If I have to watch Sam Done Come Back Wrong, Part 15, I will scream loudly enough to be heard at 4chan.
- Don’t bring Bobby back. For God’s sake, show, let that poor character rest in peace.
- Stop making Castiel a deus ex machina. He’s a solid, popular character who is capable of many other things. And stop throttling his friendship with Dean every five minutes. The Sam&Dean Bromance will survive Dean having other friends. Honest.
- Dean is in Monsterland. Leave him there for a while. And bring him back as feral as feral can be. Remember season two? Like that.
- Speaking of Dean and feral, stop writing a Princess speech for every new character Dean meets. I don’t mind in the least Dean’s drinking, depression, pill-popping, etc. I do mind how other characters have been written in response to it. Please, no more banjo-strummin’ Campbells, ‘kay?
- Stop Mary-Sueing new characters. Introduce them in one episode as normal people and then have them do really awesome and heroic stuff a few episodes later. I like to get to know characters before they turn insufferable.
We’ll be back next week with more spoilers. Stay tuned and check out our reviews of Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, The Event, Once Upon a Time, Grimm, and Supernatural.
I’ll second your wish list and just add two things:
1. I want the Impala back, Dean driving it, dressed in his new leather jacket, and no more of random cars of the week. (Sam can jack a Charger until Dean gets back.)
2. I want the gritty feel back in the show — trashy bars, pool tables, shabby motels, a few hardened hunters here and there. Please, no more bistros and table clothes, insta-families, sons and daughters, or family pets.
I’m guessing that more classic rock is out of the question, so I’ll not harp on that.
Completely agree with your wishlist for season 8. If they let Dean play caretaker for Sammy again, I’m probably done with the show.
@Ginger
Well, that’s kind of what I meant by points 1 and 7-9. As for the music, it’s still there. It’s just quieter and more in the background (We got “Born to Be Wild” in the season finale). I’m really not that attached the car and I enjoyed the car porn all season.
@Carolina
Let’s hope we get something different *and* good this season.
Unfortunately not
Have you seen the new spoiler from the TV guide magazine and the interview with Robert Singer? It’s absolutely horrible.
—-warning spoiler—–
the brothers will be reunited quickly
twitter.com/J2rules/status/207647021576888320/photo/1/large
Thanks for the spoiler round up, Paula.
All I can say is, for the show’s sake, I hope Carver starts giving the interviews soon while Singer goes back to balancing the show’s checkbook. Does Singer even know these characters? Does he realize that the sun, the moon, and the stars don’t revolve around Sam and some of us actually want to know about Dean? These days, I’m finding Singer’s interviews almost as cringeworthy as Sera’s. Almost. Sera still holds the title for giving the worst PR.
About the spoilers- at first, I was pretty pissed off by how Sensitive Sam has a storyline, Crowley is after Cas, and Dean….well, he’s no more important than collateral damage. But then again, this time jump means Dean was been stuck in Purgatory a really long time. Assuming we don’t see what happened to Dean during that time and he comes back changed somehow, that could draw out his storyline for much longer into the season. And maybe, instead of focusing as usual on his own problems, Sam actually has to figure out how to help Dean. That would be the role reversal many of us have been wanting for years.
It’s a lot to read between the lines, I know. But I just don’t think the show would focus only on Sam when we had the finale set up Dean being stranded in a horrific place worse than Hell.THere’s very little that could have happened to Sam in the meantime that would trump Dean’s experience, esp when Singer says Sam will be focused on a human problem.
I know its a bit premature to worry but I can’t say the TV Guide blurb filled me with a lot of enthusiasm. It sounds as if Crowley, Cas and Sam all have storyline set ups but once again Dean’s just the afterthought.
Hopefully we get something definitive because I don’t have any more faith that not talking about Dean means they have something big planned.
Aargh. I was fine with the TV guide spoilers — happy, even — until I saw the fine print in the bottom right corner. God forbid we should go to an interesting-looking, budget-friendly realm and STAY there for any length of time. I’m not sure if it’s a ruinous defect to the season, but it worries me.
And wow, from your wishlist to Carver’s ears. I especially co-sign the different character notes — let Sam grow in a real way! Treat Cas like a character, not a plot device! Bring good things for Dean.
I SO agree about getting a grip on the Mary Sue new character intros. The difference between Garth and Charlie vs. characters like Bobby, Ellen, Cas, even Zachariah and Crowley, is that Garth and Charlie were given *slavishly* Mary Sue intros (Garth, more so in his second time out.) And the crazy thing is, Mary Sue intros NEVER work. Unless that character happens to be your own personal wish-fulfillment (as Charlie actually was for some viewers) a Mary Sue intro will only make you hate them more.
The writing team has always had a really bad disconnect between creating characters they deliberately intend to hit well with the audience, and letting characters breathe and develop organically. Aside from John, Dean, and Sam, they’re utterly terrible at the former. (Ruby, Jo, Eve — mostly young women, not because women are terrible, but because these writers create their young female characters from a terrible male-wish-fulfillment template.) They’ve actually always been *so* good at creating characters and giving them room to grow, but only if they aren’t really thinking about it.
The most beloved characters feel like a cyclical interaction between the writer, the actor, and the audience. The writer creates a decent but non-pushy new character, the actor adds presence to make it more interesting, the audience reacts positively and is eager for more. This show doesn’t have many well-loved characters where that WASN’T the case, and the cycle continues — the Alpha Vamp, that one angel everyone liked, Edgar, even Kevin all attracted fans. (Kevin’s a gray area because I think Osric Chau’s performance is what won the day, but after his immediate intro the writers didn’t do him any major disservice.) Charlie attracted some fans, but she was written and performed in such an aggressively Mary Sue way that if you weren’t her fan, you were actively repelled.
Anyway. I wish they would get a grip on that. They *know* how to introduce characters so that fans will like them. They just completely forget how to do that when they seem to care the most.
I hope that spoilery blurb is incorrect, as it states that the guys will be quickly reunited, although much time has past.
NO! Give the seperation a few episodes, please. Maybe the characters can experience some growth, since they won’t be joined at the hip. And please – no time jumps. And extreme YES to feral Dean. Although, I’ll take smart, capable BAMF Dean. Let’s try to leave the gloom, doom and depression behind, okay? I think it’s been done to death. It’s starting to rival the “What’s Wrong With Sam” repetition. Which I am also quite sick of.
I was hopeful until I read what Singer has said recently about show. Nothing about Dean. – So, no – I am not hopeful anymore. This is the only show I have followed (the last two years – not so much), where the showrunners for a mysterious reason seem determined to put down the most popular character in the show, and to undermine a very popular friendship (Dean and Cas). If I were a showrunner and had such amazing actors as Jensen and Misha on the show, I would use this to the shows advantage!
Inwish you were the one in charge of the show! I would love to watch that show!
I am with you three and misha. Here’s to a season that makes sense; has the gritty, backroads, rock n roll, dive aesthetic we all love; makes Sam into an interesting character, lets Dean and cas survive purgatory by the skin of their teeth, shows the travails of purgatory on both and gives us gritty, badass and yes feral hunters in return. Very excited to see what happens. Carver seems to understand plot and character. Vast improvement already.
What I don’t want is for Sam to rescue Dean and cas. A lot of people seem to want this and reason he must because he could not rescue him from hell. Not logical. I do not think humans should be able to access heaven and hell without supernatural help. Dean saved Sam in 2 by making a deal which was a bad idea. Cas rescued Dean and Sam. Sure Sam might be able to figure out how to open the door letting whatever is nearby to spill into our world. It won’t necessarily be Dean and cas. He himself could jump in… to what avail? He could die before he finds them. And then why separate them in the first place?
I think it will be interesting to see their separate quests: Sam for information and Dean and cas for survival. Not sure how they will get out. Maybe the information is on a fragment of the word that was separated in burial. So maybe Sam will eventually have to deal with Crowley and rescue kevin.
To me it wouldn’t make sense for Sam to jump into purgatory to save Dean and Cas. If the door only opens from the outside, which it would, then who will open it when supersam jumps in? Kevin? Sheriff Mills? any character that gets the glory moment along with Sam except for Dean? Makes me wonder what these writers and producers have against Dean in the first place. Most of season 7 was spent on guest stars saving the day when Sam wasn’t available.
I can’t express enough hate and disappointment in that “blurb” from TV Guide. I know it’s early, but talking about Cas and Crowley and time passages is pretty solid info, that is hard to vaguely come up with, Mr. Singer. If we don’t see Dean challenged in Purgatory, I will seriously lose it.
Paula, your wish list is great. This line: “I like to get to know characters before they turn insufferable.” made me snort out loud.
“•Give the mytharc to your most popular character. Yes, I mean Dean Winchester. Sam has already had it for several years, so he’s hardly been neglected on that score. Anyway, what is the deal with not capitalising on Dean’s popularity? Get with the program, already.”
I like your wishlist a lot, Paula-especially this one. Unfortunately, the first blurb on S8 in the TV Guide and from Robert Singer hardly even mentions the character except to say that basically Dean was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and little else about the character. Sam, being the more sensitive one(really?!), according to Singer, will get the human story-which is fine by me(IF they give the myth-arc to Dean, solely) and Cas is apparently going to be Crowley’s No. 1 Enemy. I expected the time jump even while wishing for a few episodes of the brothers apart, never truly expecting Carver to take that kind of a chance. Some things about Show apparently remain oh-so-predictable. But man, the thing that rankled the most was yet again how little was said about Dean. They could have at least said that he’d get the myth-arc, even if they didn’t want to spoil anything else. I really hope this was just another one of Singer’s usual abysmal attempts at a summary and PR.
Found the TV guide span. The first sentence is an error since Crowley did not send Dean to purgatory, the weapon did. Dean’s proximity to cas wasn’t critical; both of them were dick adjacent. I assume singer is being vague and the TV guide scribe not a fan. The writer may have asked about Sam, hence the human problem comment. That sounds like he will need to learn to survive without Dean. Sounds like progress in the right direction.
No telling how much of purgatory we will see. Not really spoilery. Singer is pretty vague in previous producers promos and seems to focus on a small detail…
I take this with a grain of salt.
I’m gonna overlook that TV Guide blurb and just hope that either it’s somehow wrong or Singer was just blowing smoke to stop some people from slitting their wrists this summer over the finale. (Cause lord people are seriously losing their minds over Dean/Cas together in Purgatory) Otherwise I’ll have to facepalm at how utterly silly things are right out of the gate. There is no way they haven’t heard that the reaction to the Purgatory story line, the brothers being split up and Dean/Cas being together hasn’t been overwhelmingly positive. Yeah some people hate it, obviously, but most seem happy with what could happen. I know they don’t have this giant budget to go all out but personally I’d be okay with the woods at night and freaky sounds.
I agree with the points you made, Paula. I honestly have NO idea why they seem so against giving Dean a real story line again. S4 was so good before all of the demon blood crap with Dean trying to figure out the angels’ plans for him. Same for S5 before the stupidest plan ever/Adam popping up again. It’s like they either chicken out with Dean or think his stuff will be TOO awesome and for some reason that’s a bad thing. I still have hope though that Carver will pay more attention to Dean contrary to what other people might say around him. Cause I mean really if they just plan to keep recycling the same stuff over and over again, why should we keep watching? We already know what happens.
As for the Castiel and Dean friendship; I so agree. The fact that they have to keep chipping away at it to make the brotherly relationship seem better by comparison should tell them something about how they have been writing the brotherly relationship in the first place. Especially on Sam’s end. Maybe I’m wrong but I still feel like all the stuff with Castiel and his betrayal was just a way to screw with his friendship with Dean because it had become too popular. Call me pessimistic but I don’t think it would have happened if Cas were Sam’s friend.
Has the reaction to the purgatory thing been generally bad? I have to confess I don’t really go to any other boards or read comments elsewhere, but I do read a number of reviews and articles, and they all seemed broadly positive about the cliffhanger. So I’m quite surprised by that!
I was not a happy bunny when I read the TV guide spoilers, but after a few minutes reflection I decided to just ignore it and hope for the best. Perhaps even if we have a time jump and a brotherly reunion from the off, we still might get some flashbacks to what happened in purgatory at some point later on – I would be really amazed if no one in the writers room could see the potential. I have no idea how such things work, but it seems a bit early for any reliable spoilers about next season to be coming out, so I’ll take it with a pinch of salt.
I wonder, has any one ever done a review of the spoilers over the course of a season and looked at how they actually match up with the eventual story lines? That could be interesting.
Paula I agree with everything on your wish list and I hope that that we see at least a few of them on screen next season. Well I ‘hope’ we get all of them but, you know *shrugs*.
Oh Paula, from your typewriter to Carver’s eyes. I wish they would finally give Dean something, and I’m just amazed at how one show can totally ignore its most popular character over and over. Talk about clueless and dense. I’m surprised at Robert Singer’s continually ignoring the Dean fans, as if we don’t even exist. I knew Gamble did that for the two years she was head honcho, but I expected better from Singer. So much for that.
ITA with your wish list and would love to have seen a blurb about how Dean would be shown to survive purgatory instead of once again being told and the dreaded time jump! Really show? Another one? Yeesch, what garbage from these showrunners comes.
Just a point that came up during discussion on IMDB: We don’t know when Bob Singer gave that interview. If he gave it before the season finale aired, then it could well be moot now. If not, well…that’s a different story. Either way, though, the season is young and it’s been a few years since fans responded so enthusiastically (both positively *and* negatively) to a cliffhanger as they did to Dean and Castiel in Purgatory.
Either way, the writers just barely got back to work and are only now breaking down the season. It’s doubtful they have more than a vague idea of what they want and, for all we know, what Singer said in that tiny interview could well be nothing more than the original vague idea behind the cliffhanger or what Sera Gamble suggested on her way out the door. I think the writers were just throwing things at the wall in the last third of the season, hoping something would stick. Purgatory definitely stuck, so….
Speaking of Bobby, I don’t want to see him again. His character is played out. However, I have no objections at all to Jim Beaver returning if he can play a character that is markedly different from Bobby–an evil Shapeshifter or Leviathan, say, or maybe even a new type of monster. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind the challenge.
Maybe said monster could be using Bobby’s appearance and reputation as a way of Hunting Hunters, with Sam and Dean having to get the word out to save their colleagues’ lives. This would mean that they would have to do the opposite of last season, where they went totally underground, and have to step up as the Hunter version of Big Bads (Big Goods?) in a way that wouldn’t horribly devolve into Baby Slayer territory. And maybe, say, Dean wouldn’t respond terribly well to the spotlight (since he definitely hasn’t in the past), especially after a stint in Purgatory. Who knows? Maybe Dean could finally whack Roy and Walt!
Ha…just read your post, Paula. Bobby as a monster for s8…that would be fun. If they would bring Bobby back as he was at first….that would work too.
And we need to find out when Singer made those comments. So far he has been the only one who hasn’t lied about the series to fans. I’d can’t imagine why he would start now.
The TV Guide blurb was like a wet blanket thrown on the Purgatory story for Dean; but, as you say, the writers have barely gotten back in the door, so I’m still going to put my faith in Jeremy Carver (hoping like hell he is in that writers room and taking firm control of his writers) and see what he comes up with.
Still, with no slight mention of Dean, except as collateral damage to the Crowley/Cas thing and that God-awful human story for ‘sensitive Sam’, that niggling little voice in the back of my head keeps saying, “That’s the same way things starting falling out last year”…no story for Dean, no Dean spoilers. Then I remember that nothing that was said last year came to be, so hope is not dead yet. I’m going to hang in there and give Carver a chance…there’s no way it can be as bad as last season.
Humpf. Big Bad Good guys sounds more appealing than the Purgatory story even. I’d go for that, and I’d certainly go for ganking Roy and Walt. The Winchesters won’t do that, though. The brothers trying to save them and some monster kills them during the process would more likely be the case, I think.
@ Caroline C re: has the reaction to Purgatory really been strong/negative?
Yes, but it depends on who you’re looking at. I’ve lately been expanding my fannish horizons because the few places I visit are basically monocultures — a couple of mostly Dean-oriented places where I like the discussion, and one heavily Cas-fanatic place where I like the news updates.
I got curious about other groups’ visions so I started branching out a little. Lately I’ve found TV Overmind to be a place where each single _topic_ is often dominated by one group’s vision. But (this week?) I’ve seen Dean, Sam, and Cas fans each dominate certain discussions, so it’s evidently not an overall monoculture of readers.
Based on that and a few other threads here and there, what I’ve seen:
Anyone who is looking at the Purgatory twist for its pure storytelling potential (which would include the majority of professional reviewers) is really excited about what could happen. This is the most open-ended “I don’t know what’s coming, but I think it could be GREAT” twist the show’s had since Dean went to hell.
Lots of fans who have a more general outlook on the series take this view as well; I’ve seen incredibly excited discussions all over the place. Generalist fans can see some great possibilities for Dean, Sam, and Cas.
But things change when you get to the (very vocal) groups of fans who are heavily identified with ONE of the core characters. In that case, they’re, e.g., ONLY looking at the twist for what it might mean to Sam, and how that relates to what they want and fear for him. And that’s a really different view.
Dean fans: are really excited because the Purgatory twist seems to put Dean squarely in the most interesting part of the story. We can imagine Dean having good stories with Cas or good stories on his own since that seems to be where we left off. When we really dream big, we can imagine Purgatory somehow shaking Dean out of his emotional funk and coming back a more fun and full character.
Overall, I haven’t seen a single unhappy Dean fan. This looks like the twist that could give us things we’ve wanted for years. Until we started getting nastygrams from TPTB that maybe they’re planning some sort of aggressive anti-Dean story strike AGAIN, anyway.
Sam fans: I think Sam fans are really worried that the Purgatory twist will leave Sam behind, that Dean and Cas will be off having adventures while Sam’s just being boring, topside. I haven’t seen many Sam fans who are optimistic that Sam could show some major character growth from being on his own, though I would imagine those fans are out there. (I really want that for Sam, myself; I think a fair number of fans do.)
The thing is, the Purgatory twist looks like it might redress some of Dean’s fans’ biggest concerns. But Sam fans’ list of grievances of things that Sam’s never had is really just as long as Dean’s list. And I can sort of see some of their points. We get pissed because Dean has never had a coherent storyline. But why would they count that as a win, when Sam’s coherent storylines are so incredibly unsatisfying?
So I’ve seen the loudest Sam fans be very unhappy about the brothers’ separation for any length of time, and *very* resentful and fearful that Cas will take Sam’s place. They’re a lot more protective of what they think Sam could lose, than they are excited about this twist at all.
I don’t understand Cas fans very well (I like Cas, I just suspect that a lot of the character’s noisiest defenders are more entranced by Misha.) I do think that Paula hits it that at the core, what they want is to feel reassured that their favorite counts as a *character* with a full palette of emotions and needs, not just as a plot device. I think they’re wary because Cas took off from Purgatory right away. The sense I get is that they’re cautiously optimistic about the storyline, but just as aware as the Dean fans are that storylines can be casually and cruelly yanked away and given to someone else or left to die.
But right now, they’re mostly locked in pitched online battles with the Sam fans. Which, from a Dean fan’s perspective, is kind of amusing because it shows that no matter what people are defending, he’s still the heart of the fandom that has to be won.
This is the best summation of all sides of fandom that I’ve read! I enjoyed it immensely!
Thank you! I like to gather a wide-angle perspective when I can. Sociologically, this fandom amazes me with its long-lasting, multifarious passions.
Supernatural was a notoriously impassioned fandom even as a mere baby fandom. (I was late to the show itself, but I always kept up with the wanks.) And it still is. For good or for ill, it’s a remarkable place.
I agree with all you wished Paula except for Bobby. Sorry, but I like Bobby and I do want to see him back. I would say maybe Carver can write him better for you, but after I saw the TV Guide spoiler, I have less hope for Carver than before.
Also want the impala NEVER to leave the show again and NOOOOOOOO, I don’t want Sam to touch the impala …that is sacrilegious. And NOOOOOOOO I don’t want Sam to rescue Dean. Sam has never been able to rescue anyone and now is not the time to start. No more special snowflake in s8. He needs to grow or die…period.
I was NOT a happy camper when I read the TVguide spoiler. First…another time jump?…REALLY show??? You don’t even remember the one from s6. And no I don’t want Dean out of Purgatory in the first episode! I’d like to see him and Cass get themselves out in the 2 or 3 episode and the 4th one we can see Sam for the first time. No need to start his ‘human’ problem at the beginning. And I could care less that he is..What did they say…all alone? Bull…he has more hunters than ever he can contact and no one really knows if Crowley has Meg or not. I’m guessing not. Meg is very good at killing demons and she only had two in front of her. She could have easily lifted Ruby’s knife from Dean again, or he could have given it to her as he had no use for it with the levies. So my guess Meg guides Sam at first and we don’t need to actually see that, just hear about it in flashbacks. Sam has always been demon fodder when Dean isn’t around. Meg seems sympathetic to the boys for now. (guess that makes her Ruby#3!)
As for Sam being ‘sensitive’…does that mean when he sneaks behind his brothers back and runs around with a demon….when he swears he isn’t using his superpowers and instead practices to increase them…does that mean when he leaves monsters alive who kill people?…or when he leaves his brother in a full leg cast to find an old monster girl friend?..when he hides from Dean he tried to Quija Bobby behind his back?…when he runs away in a temper tantrum because Dean killed a monster?… when he shoots Deans daughter before Dean had decided how to handle the situation?….when he tells Dean he’s responsible for him being in a mental hospital (after Dean saved his bacon for the millionth time)or when he took all the credit for saving the world in s5? Which one of them showed Sam’s sensitivity? I’m confused. ….and already NOT liking s8.
I really do not want to see any more of Sam’s ‘sensitivity’ EVER!!!!!….just his dedication and respect to and for his big brother and a willingness to follow Dean’s instructions without question. In other words a faithful brother no matter what!!!!
As for Sam and a human problem….does that mean we have another Sam-centric saving year because Dean is ‘tainted’ with Purgatory and not fit to be the leader….AGAIN!!!!! Is this a rehash of s6-7 but the brothers reversed? Maybe we have Sam saving Dean from being a MOTW????? That will be the end of the show for me!
To be honest…I hope this is all a bunch of nonsense as I REALLY thought we would get SOME better stories form Carver. Right now, this just looks like a rehash of past seasons and I’m not interested in that. I WANT NEW IDEAS AND A DEAN POSITIVE YEAR!
@Caroline C: Well I don’t really go many places because there is so much wank but most people seem to be on board with the Purgatory story line. Now would I be surprised if that were just mostly Dean and Castiel fans? Nope. But I’d also wager that more people at home who don’t come online probably think the finale ending was cool. That is how I would feel if I hadn’t started searching for spoilers and such.
I’ve seen a FEW Sam fans that are excited about the Purgatory story because they feel like now Sam will get to stand on his own feet and work with other hunters, and develop relationships with them. They all want Sam to save Dean to I guess show how awesome he is which ya know…is fair I guess. But I think those Sam fans are few and far between. Most of the people really hating on the story are Sam fans and serious bi-bro fans who are really Sam fans in disguise. I just saw on IMDb where someone mentioned that Dean fans are being told to “suck it up” once again and are being called hypocrites who getting upset over the TV Guide article.
(“But right now, they’re mostly locked in pitched online battles with the Sam fans. Which, from a Dean fan’s perspective, is kind of amusing because it shows that no matter what people are defending, he’s still the heart of the fandom that has to be won”)
Hahaha that is true isn’t it? In the end it’s actually All About Dean! Speaking as a Castiel fan (and Dean fan) the Purgatory story line has me doubly pumped up for S8. One because yay my two favorite characters interacting more and two because I’m hopeful with Carver in charge Cas won’t be treated like crap or whatever.
I saw somewhere that MC tweeted a bunch of fans are trying to get him fired?!!
I think Ann is probably right in her assessment. It shocks me that some fans are so threatened by his being signed on again that they would advocate this online. Probably the same ones that hate him for his charity. Of course the most shocking display by fans IMO was the callous treatment of the actress that plays Meg because of her puffy face, obviously the result of meds. It’s okay to trash anyone but the special snowflake l guess (for some folks at least). I hope someone is doing a PhD on the psychology of this fan base.
I love Dean and cas. I really really love good storytelling
Yep they did. Here’s the story.
http://www.hypable.com/2012/05/31/spiteful-supernatural-fans-try-to-get-misha-co
llins-fired-fail-epically/
Really have to say again, I am so disappointed in the TV Guide spoiler. It really sounds like the SG crap is just going to be continued. How sad. I so hoped Carver was there to make things right.
Take heart and chin up! I wouldn’t attribute that tv. Guide spoilery to Carver. He wasn’t interviewed was he? It seems to me if singer did it Carver was not yet on board. I think paula is right and singer was bouncing sg’s ideas around. Singer isn’t the content Guy. That is what Carver is for.
Actually Singer and Carver are co-showrunners, so Singer is one that would know the ideas for s8. And to me it just seems we are already back to trying to guess Dean’s role, back to ‘reading between the lines’ for some hope he will actually HAVE a story this time, back to dreaming up ‘possibilities’ of how the Sam spoiler can be twisted to be a Dean one. It isn’t even Comic con yet and already it seems Sam is the focus again. it just seems nothing has changed.
There is an interesting theory floating out there that Misha and/or his fans thought up this “hate” campaign to garner some attention for him. Considering the trolling track record he and they have, it’s not far fetched. If so, it worked. lol
That sounds far fetched to me. It sounds like the kind of rumor that the folks promoting a secret campaign to get him fired would spread. I have seen some strange thinking and careless accusations made by extreme fans of Sam and the “brothers” after the finale. Some truly believe purgatory is a test for the Dean -cas show. They are that threatened by cas. The only thing I heard about super cas fans is that they were furious with Dean this season.
What is this trolling history he and his fan have?
He has already been made a regular and appears to be a hit on the com circuit as a result of his intelligence and charisma. I can’t see what he has to gain.
Then again I am new to all of this and in addition to my Dean goggles, I have a handy pair of rose colored glasses.
I agree. I know a few fairly hard core Cas/Misha fans over on twitter and they seemed quite honestly upset about it. Misha is very popular generally and he gets masses of publicity anyway – I think he got more press coverage for his episodes this season than either of the J’s – so I don’t think he or his fans need to stir up hate to get attention! I feel a bit sorry for the haters really, it’s sad that they can’t think of a more constructive or positive way to spend their time and energy, what miserable people they must be.
A rumour I suppose is put out by the very same people who started the hate campaign. I heard it was the socalled silent majority that started the campaign, and when it backfired, started the rumour about casfans…. Neither very trustworthy…
I don’t think it’s Misha or anybody else who would have a “logical” reason to hatch a conspiracy like this. It’s not big enough to hit the news, so there’s no real profit.
That said, my money is on “troubled Misha fan” rather than “genuine anti-Misha or pro-Sam fan group” for starting the whole thing. Large online fandoms have a storied history of individual fans who have gulled their entire fandoms with malicious hoaxes. Often the hoaxes are about the con artist’s *favorite* being persecuted by evil forces from outside. The con artist manufactures the persecution with a sock puppet, then rides to the defense under her regular name. Political and religious crooks have used this same trick for millennia, so I guess it stands to reason the church of fandom would get hold of it.
Frankly, to me this blow-up reads a lot more like the hoaxes than a genuine fight. A close cognate is “The MsScribe Story”, in the Harry Potter fandom. (Look it up if you’re curious but pack a lunch; it’s genuinely compelling true-crime writing told by the “plucky girl detective” who figured it out, but it’s LONG.)
MsScribe, in an effort to get close to ultimate big-name fan Cassie Clare, basically terrorized Clare and others using sock puppets so she could ride to their defense and gain their trust. She “framed” a specific other fan group in the process and successfully demonized them to the point that they disbanded.
When they’re exposed, the people who do these things appear to have very serious mental health issues. Their actions aren’t always rational and aren’t always acting toward a rational goal. (Cassie Clare’s name has been mud in much of the HP fandom since she was exposed as a hardcore plagiarist, so it’s laughable to think her favor was such a prize. Similarly, no rational anti-Misha faction would dream this campaign would work, and no rational pro-Misha fan would imagine the hoax would create anything but ugly chaos.)
A person fake-persecuting Misha, and a group genuinely-persecuting Misha are about equally irrational, but to my eye this still has the hallmarks of a classic fake.
Can you explain why there are some in random who believe they should be able to influence the wayvthe show is written and which characters to keep or not?
Of courseci have also read that sg and ek ruined the show by listening to fans. Assuming these are not the same folks clambering to be heard. It is strange to me. I may dislike what I see but hey I am not the auteur and it is not my creative endeavor. Is this influenced by video games or something? Did this happen in other fandoms. I am just too old I guess. How does a show appeal to teens and me (50 and ambivalent about it).
Okay, I’ve been observing a bit the past few days without really taking part in any discussion. One thing I will say beforehand though and that is to which extent some people are taking it at the moment with their “mission” and trying to influence the writers etc. starts really bordering on over the top delusional. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, but there is a difference in voicing your opinion and being a total douchebag. Hate campaigns, really? I mean: REALLY? Do these people really think such a behavious will get them somewhere in life? If they really do think that they should not just re-evaluate but also maybe get themselves professional help, because the way things are spinning out of control atm is really going too far.
I’m just glad non of that kind of drama is to be found on here. I hate the drama and the hate and I don’t want to be associated with any of that, so I’m just gonna stop talking about it. I just needed to say that it’s perfectly normal for people to disagree and care about one character more than about the other and voice their opinion. It’s just all about the way those opinions are being represented. The way some people voice their “opinion” though, spread their hate campaigns has nothing to do with that and is just wrong and so many different levels that I could write a novel about it and that is exactly why I’m going to stop right here.
I can say this about it though. I’m not Team Destiel. I’m not Team Solely The Winchester Brothers. Most of all I am Team Supernatural. And I hold all the characters very dear (even though there might be one character that especially owns my heart and you all know who that is).
Now to the spoilers and discussion about purgatory.
I have to say I am surprised that there seems to be discontent with the purgatory storyline and the cliffhanger in general, everywhere I went to read about it, people (no matter who there fave is) were/are stoked about the story possibilities for all characters involved. Sam, Dean and Castiel. And I would lie if I said that I don’t love the purgatory especially because of the possibilites it holds for Dean’s charcater to grow and have a truly great story.
Despite that very early spoiler I am more then convinced that season 8 will be a great season. I still hope they will pull through with keeping the brothers separated for a while and we get more than a glimpse of purgatory. If that isn’t the case I hope Carver will come up with an equally interesting way to deal with it and let all characters grow. To be honest I don’t give too much about that spoiler. As has been said it’s still very early to be hopeless because of one things Singer said. Maybe I am such a dreamer, but maybe the not mentioning of Dean’s character here actually is a good thing. I mean maybe they already have the idea for Sam’s storyline, a human problem. I doubt that they will build a whole season around a human and not at least part supernatural problem. And I believe that at least in some way Sam’s human problem story won’t revolve around him but around Dean and the aftermath of purgatory. I think Sam’s story will be helping Dean to adjust but not in the way to point out that Sam is a better hunter and so much stronger than Dean. I believe we will get a strong Dean story in seaosn 8 and nothing can convince me otherwise. *Dean Goggles* So maybe not hearing about Dean’s story is a good sign. Maybe they really don’t know what to do yet, but I see this as a good sign. t should take them some time to come up with something cool and also. I doubt that they would let such amjor spoiler about Dean slip. I mean that is the mystery. What wull happen to Dean. How will he come back? Purgatory PTSD on top of a never dealt with Hell PTSD? Will Dean finally hit breaking point? Will that make him a supernatural/human problem? Or is Sam’s human problem Dean’s drinking that will increase after he comes back? Will Dean be some kind of monster when he returns, ready to rip off each persons head that seems to be just a mild threat to him? How will that play out? Will Dean come back as uber-hunter / maybe even monster like (in the way he feels the need to defend himself constantly) and has trouble adjust to “normal” hunter life? Will he be cleansed of all his sins? Will purgatory giev Dean his purpose back? Will he go dark?
As you can see. Many many question. All of them making interesting storylines that by the way would involve both brothers. Castiel would fit in that problem as well. Showing the supernatural being dealing with a place like purgatory and the aftermath of it and the human way of dealing with a place like purgatory. I firmly believe that on one hand it’s too early to make a lot of this spoiler and on the other hand I strongly doubt that they would spoil the twist – if they have it yet – in the beginning, especially if it involves Dean. So, I’m not really bothered by the fact Dean’s not mentioned in it.
I continue to wear my goggles and I am convinced that Carver will like our Dean goggles as well.
Dear that was long… Did anyone even understand half of what I tried to say? 0.o
Holy shit. Typos Galore. I apologize.
Yeah Dean goggles! Kudos to friend for being smart and positive. I agree with everything you said. I chose this site because I thought paula and commenters were smart and because there was no drama. There was a free exchange if opinions. Good times.
Other than through ratings I do not think fans can expect to have a say. It is delusional or perhaps narcissistic. The misha situation is beyond comprehension. Especially considering how generous the shows actors are with fans. It’s an affront to all of them. Hopefully misha took the nonsense in stride.
I have seen people very unhappy with the finale because they do not want the boys separated. They hate cas too. I saw people delighted that there was a movement to get cas fired on one site. I think for the most part they are closeted esg pretending to be Winchesters. The brothers must be together so Dean can take care of Sam as it has always been nonsense. This mindset I also don’t understand (especially having just experienced it firsthand)!
Even though Dean has often not had much of a story I was not unhappy until this season and 6 because at least there was a decent overall story. I am in a minority in not minding the guest stars if the episode was good. I want a good story first. This season is the first time that I went a little crazy over Dean’s nonstory. The season was that bad. I am not deeply hurt if Dean is criticized. I do think it’s weird he has not been better utilized since I think he is the most interesting. I would not stop watching. I would not want anyone fired.
I think Ann emmess is right in that there is a maturity issue with some fans. Cassieo is also right in that there may also be an age issue as maturity is linked to age in most people. Some people never grow up and some people are mature as children.
I am going to take others advice and be careful of where I go to read.
Your English is so good friend. Never apologize. I guess you are German since you went to aecon. I have German friends. They all speak beautiful English. Wunderbar!
Thanks for the compliments!
I agree with you and the others assuming that maturity and age at times really go hand in hand, even though I’ve seen a lot of VERY weird comments coming out of 25+/30+ fans as well. Things that just made me shake my head and want to bury it in the sand. So yeah as you said, there are sometimes just weird people with even weirder opinions. But let’s not talk about that much longer. There are more interesting things to speculate about. 
I’ve been thinking about purgatory and Dean in particular again and I was just thinking about whether the writers might play with like similarities between hell and purgatory in what it might do to you / do to Dean or not. I mean there could be some interesting things coming from it if they went that way, even though I’m not sure if I’d like to see it played out on screen for real. Anyway. I’ve been thinking about how when Dean was in hell he seemed to be well on his way to turn into a demon.
What if purgatory is doing similar things to you. I mean after all purgatory is, at least if I remember correctly from SPN canon, no place where a human (soul) should or could ever end up normally. It’s different than hell and heaven. If you’re in purgatory you were a monster before.
[And then I was thinking about it again that maybe Dick Roman only was able to pull Dean (and Cas) with him because Dean has a "monster backstory".]
Anyway, I’m getting carried away, what if purgatory makes you turn into a monster – not as in the way that Dean comes back as a monster like a levi or vampire, but Dean for example as this sort of uber-hunter/bordering-on-monster because he’s like a cold-blooded killer, etc… I think that this would be an interesting option – really dean fighting his own /inner monsters and then those that could turn him into a human monster – but I’m really not sure if I’d want to see that for Dean, because it would remind me of Soulless Sam character wise and I didn’t like that for Sam either, so… I don’t know.
Also, another thing. What do you guys think abotu purgatory. I know a lot of people like the idea because some fan favourite characters could make a re-appearance and it first I thought yes that would be prefect option for them to do that: okay, when monsters die they go to purgatory, but now I’m not so sure whethere that would include angels for example. Demons I would understand if they’d end up there but even them I don’t know. Has SPN ever really said where demons/ghosts/angels go when they die? As far as I remember ghosts just vanish and Molly walked into the light and got to heaven???? Do angels just vanish as well? Or do the angels go to angel heaven? I for some reason assume that demons don’t return to hell… Or have I missed something? To me purgatory seems like the place for vamps, ghouls, werewolves. Creatures, but not ghosts, spirits, demons or angels. Anyone knows, remembers something that slips my mind right now?
Oh and yes, you are right, I am german.
Thanks, good to know that you guys understand my blabbing. 
Wunderbar! And btw did Dick Roman say that in 7×23 or did I mishear that? If I didn’t and he really said it in german it would def undermine a feeling I got while watching the season and especially the levis and Dick Roman as their leader, because I always kind of felt “reminded” of german history around WW2 with their storyline.
That’s it. I dumped enough questions here for today.
Anyway,
Interesting thoughts friend. I remember him saying wunderbar but did not get a nazi vibe from the Levi. Fyi, Grimm had a nazi theme for one episode … with magic gold coins that brought out the inner dictator in fairy tale folk including hitler which was a wolf person.
I definitely think Dean should be profoundly changed by purgatory. I imagine the environment and effects will be similar to hell dimensions in Buffy/angel. There a character in a hell dimension had to fight constantly for survival, and upon there return was feral and for all practical purposes … insane. Dean is already close to feral and crazy as is.
I also wonder (hope) that purgatory may trigger the Phoenix ash in his blood so that some benefits materialize. I would not mind him having some supernatural attributes. And being able to heal and burn evil could save his beautiful self in purgatory.
I am also very interested in how castiel will change. He seemed to have pulled himself together at the end when he woke Dean. However, he still lacks trust in himself for all the death and destruction he caused. Being in a situation where he has to constantly fight will be difficult for him.
I think ideas about what they will encounter in purgatory were discussed in the finale comments. I am of the opinion that ghosts could be there and angels and demons probably not. Definitely monsters galore!
Of course Carver could take things any number of ways. Very exciting.
Oh thanks for the info. I have only watched like 4 episodes of Grimm, but I think that the one you are referring to def wasn’t one of those 4 episodes I watched. Anyway, I might watch the first season fo Grimm to get over the Hellatus Blues.
Yeah, maybe I’m interpreting to much into the levis. But the slaughterhouses. Breeding the perfect food. The expansion and influencing of all parts of society. Somehow some things really strongly reminded me of Nazi Era, but maybe I’m over-analizing.
I agree with you with everythign Dean and purgatory. he should def be changed in some way. I’d def love to see the phoenix-ash in Dean’s system be explored in a storyline and I also wouldn’t mind Dean coming back as this feral borderline insane hunter. But that might to a certain extent simply be because I’d really LOVE to see Jensen give us such a performance.
Just read that Ben Edlund is leaving Supernatural. Anyone knows if this is true or just another rumour?
The article is here:
http://affairsmagazine.com/wordpress2/2012/06/03/ben-edlund-ben-blacker-to-leave-supernatural/
There are no quotes or other references in it and the author also talks about Ben Blacker, whom I’m pretty sure has been gone since last season, leaving. But that is the source.
Even if the article itself is spurious, I’d be unsurprised if Edlund leaves at this point. He seemed disinterested in the show last season.
Thanks a lot for the info Paula!
If this is true, it doesn’t surprise me either. I think it was at Comic Con last year he said in an interview that he wanted to start looking at different things, and he’s seemed disinterested in SPN for a couple of years now to me.
I’ve always thought Ben was SPN’s most talented and creative writer, and I love his work; but if he decides to move on, I’ll feel like he made the best decision for himself and wish him the best.
There is an update on the article. Ben Acker and Ben Blacker are leaving NOT Ben Endlund.
That’s good news. I’m glad he is staying.
I would be very surprised if Edlund left the show now that SG is gone. I heard he threatened to leave sometime in s7, for what reason I don’t know, but then heard he was fine with the series. I’m guessing Ackles was not the only SPN person SG irritated. And I actually thought both Ben’s joined the series in s7 but one left before mid season, again because of conflict in the writing room. Seems some writers don’t want writing that’s not there’s associated with them. I was always under the impression that a story was presented to the group and them all the writers had input into it’s content.
Not something I would approve of either.
OK friend. I see your point about similarities to 3rd Reich policies in WW2. Sadly these practices are also endemic to American meat production. Since American processed food industry practices were also co-opted by the Levi, I think the plan was to comment on American big business related to food production and by extension the rising obesity epidemic and associated poor health. Horrific yes but in a completely different way than I want for the show.
@ castiel’scat
“Can you explain why there are some in random who believe they should be able to influence the wayvthe show is written and which characters to keep or not?”
(I got really into answering this. Sorry for the bonus “too long; didn’t read”.)
Well, there are a couple of different layers to consider, there. But first let me be straight-up: if I had a magic wand right now, I’d be influencing the writers all by myself. I wouldn’t have one particle of guilt about the rest of you. I’m confident that with my magic wand there would be improvements. (I’m equally confident in you, or Paula, or anyone else here, if Cassieo promises not to fire Jared.
) Influencing writers is my bonafide pastime — I edit friends’ stories and show them where they’ve gone off course and how to fix it. The concept doesn’t threaten me because I’ve seen lots evidence that it works. So: I’m all about story as a collaboration between multiple people.
(Actually, I actively disbelieve in anything like an “auteur” theory. We are a species of collaborators who are bred to love the myth of the solitary creator. But it’s a myth. Scratch 9 out of 10 lone-wolf geniuses and you will find at least one other essential contributor behind the curtain. Stories are not magical treasures that only appear to the gifted, sprinkled with fairy dust. Stories are more like DIY projects that anyone can put together in their own garage if they learn the basic skills, and practice. People have ALWAYS messed with and improved other people’s stories. That’s what mythology and folklore (and comic books) ARE. Kripke is a terrific writer, but he is *not* an auteur. Supernatural would have sucked in sixteen ways to Sunday, and been rapidly cancelled, if he hadn’t listened to a lot of other people’s excellent advice and revised his own ideas.)
Story “experts” make up the inner layer of outspoken critics we’re seeing right now. These include the people who talk the most about Dean’s lack of storyline. Many SPN fans work with stories themselves. They know how stories are traditionally organized, and they can easily talk about how they would rebuild SPN. (We can do it. We have the ancient technology.)
This casual expert-talk can sound intimidating and dictatorial if you’re not used to working with stories in the same way. But that’s not the intention. It’s more like: I can drive a car, but my mechanic knows cars on a whole different level. It’s not magic; your mechanic can deconstruct your car because she knows how to put it back together.
The story experts don’t all agree with each other, because they don’t all pay attention to the same failings in the writing. But they also don’t assume that they’re beneath the SPN creators. They think of themselves as equals. Or, since SPN has violated so many fundamental principles of good storytelling lately, they think of themselves as mentors who can offer a dysfunctional crew some necessary home truths.
Then there’s the outer layer of story-influencers, who seem to be making more of the noise right now. These are fans who are acting from emotion, more than story structure. They know their deepest desires, and they’d like to see them on-screen. (We want more brotherly love. We want Sam in middle of the action. We want more Cas. We want Cas gone.) They have a powerful emotional urge to see something happen. And it makes sense, when you want something that badly, that you might try to make it happen.
Here’s the thing: I do not think, at all, that this show has been ruined by fan influence, either in the Kripke or the Gamble years. I do not have any fear that today’s writing campaigns are going to unduly influence the Carver administration. There are exactly two reasons that writers change what they are writing because of fans:
1) The writers are forced to do so by their bosses, because the fans are genuinely so loud. The whole of SPN US fandom isn’t large enough for that, especially with time-lagged international viewers paying the bills.
2) The writers do exactly what they want, and then say the fans made them do it.
No rational writer, responding to market forces and fan desires, would choose to diminish Dean like the show has. Jensen has one of the highest q-ratings of any TV star working today. (Particularly online, where an army of fans push him to the top of *every* conceivable poll, up past the Glee kids.)
No group of fans ever banded together and told Kripke, and later Gamble, that they would only watch the show if Sam was the focus of every single arc. Eric and Sera latched onto that concept through their own vanity and arrogance. They, pretty obviously, chose to ignore “the marketplace” when they set their course. Eric lucked into some fortuitous course-corrections despite himself (like the writer’s strike that sent Dean to hell and introduced Castiel.) Sera didn’t share his good fortune.
When I hear about fans trying to influence the show I’m not worried about undue changes. I think it would be nice just to prick the show-runners’ bubble, and simply know we were heard.
When people talk about fans influencing the show they’re talking about things like:
A) Becky. Whatever. No rational writer who genuinely cared about “honoring” fangirls would write that character in such a disrespectful way. Becky is a latter-day version of Bela – she is the way she is because the writers held her in contempt.
B) Fanservice (like gay jokes about Dean and Cas.) If the writers didn’t personally want those jokes, they would not write them. There is enough else that is fan-desirable, that they pointedly choose not to put in. As in…
C) Castiel’s protracted run. If fan pressure kept Cas around, the writing team let us know how exactly how they felt about it. How? By bringing Cas back but deliberately withholding every reasonable (and story-logical) request the fans had ever made. A gratifying moment of forgiveness and redemption when Cas came back would have been storytelling 101. Just unbelievably basic. Do you feel like what you got instead was some sort of brilliant auteurish move, or was it more like a bully waving candy at a little kid, then snatching it away? The truth is, if the writers *do* obey fan wishes, they will turn them into nightmares whether it is rational to do so, or not.
So. (pant, pant.) Don’t worry about the fan movements. They can try to be heard, but history says they won’t succeed. About the best you can do is hope that the new team of writers will decide, on their own, that they want to give you something that you want.
WOW! This was fascinating to read. I’m guessing you are a writer yourself and would LOVE to read some of you stuff. As for Jared…I don’t dislike him at all. Its SAM I dislike… and as I used to think Sam was great, if I had a magic wand to influence the writers, Sam wouldn’t be gone, just back to where he was liked by people. And Dean would be front and center at least 50% of the time. (Maybe 75% for a while just because we have had 100% of Sam for 4 years!)
And you are so right about the use of JA and his character. I know the show initially started with Sam as the focus, but fans didn’t take to that at all. And when you have a series you want to stay on the air you cater to the character that will bring in the majority of casual viewers. For this show that is Dean!
I have never been involved with a series where the fans are not only blatantly ignored, but have verbal jibs thrown at them by Kripke himself! That is just very adolescent in nature. It just boggles the mind that ANY showrunner would intentionally disregard the favorite of fans and produce plots *FOR YEARS* centered on the secondary interest in the series. From a business stand point that it just employment suicide. The only reason they are still around is the small CW network and the fact the WB, who owns Supernatural, also owns half of CW.
I know everyone thinks the viewer’s numbers, around 1.5 mil per episode now, is normal and expected, but really, if the series had centered on Dean when he became the main fan interest, do you really think we would have numbers like 1.56mil for a season finale? I don’t and I don’t see why that should be acceptable to TBTP either.
Ann, that’s a very interesting perspective. I too have seen some fundamental philosophic differences in what certain fans are asking from the writers. One campaign that purports to speak for fandom is demanding a “return to the brothers”. Their group originated out of a mutual hate for the fianle- some members wanted Sam in Purgatory instead of Dean, some wanted Sam there instead of Cas, some didn’t want the brothers separated…all of which was based on pure emotion and had nothing to do with the actual integrity of the story. I even saw one fan lamenting how Dean didn’t call out for Sam in a heartfelt wail. Never mind that Dean’s stunned silence beautifully paralleled Sam’s response up in the lab or that Dean isn’t the same guy who went to Hell 4 years ago or most importantly, that Dean’d be stupid to draw unwanted attention to himself in hostile territory. Nope, all that’s irrelevant when compared to Dean and Sam’s epic love affair. Oh please.
I might be called a hypocrite because, on the other hand, I’ve long supported the push for a Dean storyline. To me, the difference is in how I feel it’s important for more than just my own personal enjoyment- I really believe that the writers’ repeatedly dropping the ball on a lead character’s story weakens the overall show. It’s about what “makes sense” and not just what’s emotionally based.
It’s how minor character Adam was suddenly touted at the 11th hour as a perfect replacement for Dean, despite Gabriel’s speech about how it was always destined to be Dean and Sam. Or how Righteous man Dean was prophesized to be the “only one who can stop it”- until Dean was declared as no longer a part of the story and Death crowned Sam as the world’s only hope. Or how Dean’s mental state deteriorated this season to where even Jensen thought his character was headed for a meltdown…only to have Dean’s depression mysteriously vanished without explanation. If this were a book, readers would be loudly complaining about all those guns on the mantle and the lack of pay off. The fact that this is a TV show doesn’t make the need for cohesive, logical, and relevant storytelling any less- especially when dealing with one of the two main characters.
Actually both of your examples can be explained very easily in my book. EK and SG had a personal love affair (not literally of course) with Sam Winchester. They were totally obsessed with the character to the point of even letting it deteriorate the series. Cost SG her job. I just don’t understand why it was allowed to go on for 4 years.
Carver has no special dispensation for Sam so hopefully we will get much better scripts and arcs for Dean and hence the series. That is what the majority of the fans want and this is supposed to be a year for fixing fan complaints. Guess we just have to wait and see.
And it doesn’t surprise me that Samfans wanted Sam the one in Purgatory. They want him front and center always. The fact that he wasn’t, hopefully speaks to a change in focus. But it remains to be seen how much influence Carver will have.
I was surprised that Sam didn’t yell out for Dean, and no I didn’t expect Dean to call for Sam. To much water has gone under the bridge for Dean to count or hope on help from Sam any more. He will go to Cas first, IMO. But Sam has still a very strong dependency on Dean. After all, Dean helped Sam all season long, again. To me the co-dependency is gone just because of all the stress and anxiety Dean when through for Sam this season. When you have to help someone that much, it has to affect how you see him in the future.
And Paula if you want to disagree with me for my Sam comments, I don’t mind. I like hearing your POV even if I end up not agree with it. You have a very unique perspective and I kind of miss the banter.
Thanks. I used to love reading Pauline kael when I was a teenager in the boonies. I totally buy inauteur auteur theory for some film. Obviously most TV and film is a collective process. I wouldn’t want fan spam to circumvent the creative process.PARDON MY CAPS BUT IT BOGGLES THE MIND THAT DEAN AND JA IS SO WASTED.
Comic Con released WB’s lineup for Supernatural’s panel in July.
“Supernatural (Wednesdays 9/8c The CW): Returning to Hall H are series stars Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles, joined by recurring guest stars Misha Collins, Jim Beaver and Mark A. Sheppard, as well as new executive producer Jeremy Carver and consulting producer Ben Edlund.”
Here’s the link: http://comiccon.thewb.com/2012/WBSDCC2012Schedule/
And yes, I’m glad Jim Beaver is still a recurring guest star. The concept of no more fan deaths has to be kept if they want more people to come back. It would also be good if others returned.
And no, I don’t believe he will be in the premier for 5 mins and then die again. They are trying to repair the fan damage and that just wouldn’t cut it.